Profile sounds different than miked amp

    Hi everyone, I recently bought a kemper lunchbox, and so far I'm not too satisfied with the profiles from the exchange. A couple of amazing cleans, but distorted not too much, so I got my Peavey Triple XXX and an Orange PPC212OB from a friend (since I don't have a cab yet) and decided to make a few profiles. I used both crunch and ultra channels, with gain at 12 o'clock, eq's at pretty much 12 o'clock, channel volume at 12, and master at 9-10 o'clock. No matter how many times I refine the profile, there is a difference in sound, and the amp sounds better - more subs, clearer, less saturated mids and crispier high frequencies. Kemper profile is without those sub frequencies (actually almost every profile from rig exchange is missing those subs for me, except for the ones that are captured with ribbon mics, but that as well may be a different bass response than what cab+mic produces), mids are overdistorted, and highs are missing, like there's a low pass filter present somewhere in the chain.
    My setup is: Mayones setius 6 gtm with SD JB in the bridge and Jazz in the neck (or LTD EC-1000 with EMG 81 and 60), planet waves cable into front input of the kemper, direct out (with another guitar cable) from kemper to the front input of the peavey, shure sm 57 somewhere between the cone edge and speaker edge (don't remember, it was a quick test just to compare a profile with the real amp), xlr cable from mic to xlr return on the back of the kemper, main out from kemper into rme fireface, monitoring through a pair of genelec 8040's, and headphone out on the front of the kemper into audio technica m50x. Oh yes, and the cab is in a different room.
    On the kemper, input settings are 0 dB for both clean and driven sensitivity, output eq is flat on all outputs, main out is master stereo, direct out is git analog, space is off for headphones, pure cabinet is off. Both insert and fx sections are bypassed on the kemper. I read the manual on profiling and it says that I should find a similar sound to start with, and set the return level to sound close to the profile currently loaded, so I did that, set the distorted mode for profiling, left eq at flat, tube shape at default 3.3, actually everything at their default value, except for the return level, and back to the beggining - I refined it two times in a row, heavily strumming open chords and chords up the neck, and there is no improvement after the refinement.
    I got a little better result after turning the master volume from 12 o'clock to 9-10, but this still isn't a convincing copy of the tone.
    So...what am I doing wrong? I have the kemper for about a month now, and I'm not too satisfied with it so far. Cleanish tones, gently driven tones are really great (morgan ac20 profile for example), but high gain stuff I just can't seem to find or setup the way I want.
    I have a quick demo I made with logic's factory drums where I alternate between kemper profile and reference amp every four bars, first with drums, then stereo guitars, and then mono, centered guitar, if you want to hear those differences in frequencies. Just give me a suggestion where can I upload a wave file and not have it converted as I've got with soundcloud.


    Advice, anyone?

    Thanks, Michael. Due to high gain profiles, I mostly keep it on, but during the profiling stage I kept it off.
    The thing is, when I'm not playing, and I alternate between kemper and the reference amp, there is a very audible difference in "hiss", or that constant background noise, frequency-wise, even after several refinements. I would have to apply a matching eq to get those two to sound alike.

    Welcome!


    Can you clarify please: Did you in fact apply a matching EQ and get things to sound alike, or were you simply making a statement?


    Myself and others are experiencing the same issues you describe. Often referred to as a congested mid/gain structure and a clarity/depth issue on the lower end of the spectrum. I also sometimes notice the top end isn't quite as crisp either as you pointed out. These issues seem bothersome mostly to people who are into higher gain stuff.


    Wish I had answers for you, the fact is there are a bazillion permutations that could be contributing, and while some of us are convinced some of the issues are likely the KPA itself, there are a vast number of other things that, in your particular case, could also be contributing to things. The KPA is a great device but it can take a lot of time and effort to understand all the possibilities.


    Some questions:
    - When did you buy your lunchbox, was it purchased new?
    - What OS rev is installed?
    - What style of higher gain tones are you after?


    Sonic

    Quote from tylerhb

    I always thought that the Triple XXX cannot be profiled due to its built in noise gate that cannot be deactivated.


    Hmm...good point. I'm not first-hand familiar with XXX but I do own a JSX and that has an adjustable noise gate.


    Noise gates, direct mix signals and simultaneous preamp & output stage distortion are three problematic areas for the KPA profiling that I'm aware of.

    That's a great point, tylerhb, but I thought that the older Triple XXX didn't have a noise gate, now I read that it has a "noise reduction circuitry" which isn't technically a gate and won't cut off signals bellow a certain threshold, but rather attenuates hum. It might be that this is what affects the profiling stage, ending in different frequency print (but it's just so much different).


    And Michael_dk, now I get your question about a gate.


    SonicExporer, it was only a statement, I didn't bother applying any plugins later, because that would mean one more device after the kemper, and defeat the purpose of it.
    Now, about that frequency response - Kemper suffers from the lack of that natural thump you hear from a cab when you cut a sustaining chord with your palm, that was the most frustrating thing, because I had this problem for years trying to get a good result from amp modellers in VST and AU form, I simply couldn't get my head around how some guys get such great sounds from plugins, it NEVER worked for me. I tried using a passive DI box, my RME interface has an instrument input which has 470 kOhm impedance, active and passive pickups, and the results were always underwhelming. I don't have this lack of thump only when I use a miked cab.


    Back to the point - so last night I booted Kemper in maintenance mode, and applied a factory reset, initialized settings and factory rigs. It sounds much better now, a couple of high gain factory profiles sound really good and finally have that thump I talked about! Unbelievable!
    Now, I bought the Kemper used about a month and a half ago, and it had some commercial profiles, none of which I found impressive. I tweaked extensively a couple of both free and commercial and those were kind of ok for me.


    I don't remember what os version it had when I bought it, but I updated a couple of times and now I have 5.1.1.12825.


    The types of high gain tones I'm after are mostly Peavey-ish Machine Head type of tone, (or something similar with a dual recto), a bit of Sylosis-like Marshall tone and a bit of not so sharp (Gojira, Helmet, and Metallica Diezel type of tone - more lows and mids, less highs). I Actually found a free profile of 5150 III by Jevo, which was all that I needed but I was dissapointed when it sounded a lot different with my kemper/guitar/playing style.


    I don't have the cab anymore, so I can't test the profiling now, but I'll go to a friend who has a dual recto with a mesa standard 412 cab and try to make a profile of that. Until then, time to revisit those commercial and Jevo's 5150 III profiles.

    What the frigg....???


    MDK, it sounds to me like the OP's KPA was otherwise functioning fine, but the tones weren't rendering the quality expected. And it was all resolved with a reset. Any guess if I should also try a factory reset to see if it helps out with the tone struggles I've been having?? Never occurred to me such a thing could help.....



    @danijelsh , did you upgrade the OS BEFORE doing the factory reset? Meaning, did you have problems with the tone since you got the KPA and upgrading the OS didn't change anything, and it was only after that you did a reset and everything cleared up? Do I have that sequence correct?





    Sonic

    Yes, you got it correct, there were frequency response problems from the first day, even after updating, but I didn't quite know what to expect from the kemper, so I didn't pay much attention to it; I just thought that I still haven't found the right profile. The thing is, I got a couple of free profiles before I bought the kemper, and noticed immediately that Jevo's profile didn't sound like in his youtube video. It was that tone allright, but the thump was missing. I've yet to try that profile after the last night reset.


    I'm fully aware that my pickups, scale length, string height and tension, different tuning, and ultimately my picking style all affect the tone, maybe that's something you need to take into consideration as well.


    As for the reset, just backup your profiles, take note of the input/output settings (pedal settings if you use any) and go for it. I don't know how many profiles you are using, but I guess I'm at mostly 10 usable for different genres (clean, chorus, overdriven for a singe coil strat, tweaked clean, chorus and overdrive for humbucker type guitar, clean and high gain for low tuned guitar, you get the idea), so reseting the device and restoring it to a previous state isn't much of a hassle.

    Thanks, I may have to try it although I have a bad feeling it is going to probably create a whole new set of obstacles and a struggle to get things configured back to where I started.


    Something about the gain construct is simply killing me, it sounds artificial to my ears no matter what I try. It's not on the balance tonally much better than a POD for the tones I'm after. The features & feel are awesome, but the gain structure/tone is really frustrating. I'm just about ready to throw in the towel.

    I understand you, I was close to giving up on the Kemper myself, but it's just impossible that it works so good for so many people and not for me, so I'll give it another go. So far, things are looking good, I was jamming with that factory profile from deadlight, edvaha 5150 iii, something like that. Try it if you can, tell me if it works for you, it did really nice for me today.
    What POD do you have? Maybe we can compare presets and I can tell you my experience. I have the XT (non live) version, and I'm fairly satisfied with some high gain tones, but it doesn't really come close to Kemper.
    What exactly are your problems with the Kemper? Same as mine? Describe them, please.
    It would be nice if you recorded the same (or similar) riff using a profile which you like and compare it with author's demo, as I'm about to do with that Jevo's profile I'm rambling about...


    What kind of tones are you after and what gear are you using?

    I was using an old Bean POD 2.0 with analog pedals in the front for pre-production and songwriting. I got the KPA for direct recording at any hours of the day so when I did keeper-tracks I wouldn't have the neighbors complaining about my tube amps.


    Yeah similar issues you are describing. However, sounds like your doing the drop-tuned really high gain stuff mostly. I'm doing the early 80's hot-rodded Marshall Classic Metal stuff (Style of Dio, Maiden, Dokken, etc). And the main issue I'm having is there is something about the midrange and/or gain structure in the KPA that makes for a fake sounding impression. Sometimes you can be fooled playing the KPA alone - but the minute it goes into a mix, especially compared next to tube amp tracks, you can tell something is just not right. A similar buzzy/fizzy kind of overtones and midrange congestion as I would often get from the POD.


    I'm with you - just doesn't seem logical the device can apparently be working for so many others and yet here I am struggling. However, I am also not seeing too many people doing the style of music I'm dong either, most people who are into higher gain stuff seem to be in drop tunings, palm muting, scooped mids, etc. So it may well be the KPA can't reach the tones I'm after. . The very first day I plugged into the KPA it didn't sound real to me but otherwise seems to functioning OK. The best way I can describe my impressions (as far as tone goes - not features or feel or anything else) is as if a POD mated with a J-Station and had a next-generation hybrid child. Rather than a real amp.


    Yeah, if I can't figure this out then maybe comparing some results using presets and re-amping would be helpful.


    Sonic

    Quote from deadpan

    When I have similar results refining with eq can get you there, I will use eq both before and after the amp. Before the amp to control break up and after for fine tuning the eq.

    Thanks, this is exactly where I'm at now, just started testing out pre-EQ to see if I can morph things into sounding more real.

    deadpan, that's a good advice with pre and post eq, it works for enhancing the tone, but sometimes you can easily get carried away and/or end up fixing an initially bad tone, so maybe what Sonic has is a different problem, I also tried to fix those profiles I found okayish with more and more post eq-ing, and now after that reset, everything is flat, there's no need for tweaking. What exactly do you mean by those drastic changes during the refinement? Everywhere I checked it's advised to strum full chords, and strum them hard. Is there something different we should try during that stage, and what kind of difference can we expect?


    Sonic, you can also try switching the eq block to pre so you have more control of what goes into the overdrive, that's an alternative to putting an eq in the insert slot. Anyway I find that if I need to eq heavily, something is definitely wrong, so I suggest you go for a factory reset from the maintenance menu (just backup everything). What is your current setup with the Kemper, are you using it through a cab, a frfr, studio monitors? How many outputs do you use and what else do you have connected? Some pedals maybe, a controller?
    I would like to know how big your setup is to try and help you minimize the hassle of restoring to a previous state. What do you think will go wrong if you reset the device?