Fractal Axe Fx 3

    but of course you're right i am also sometimes suprised of stemtracks of awesome mixes where i never realised how bad actually the guitar sounds

    Quote from ColdFrixion


    Profiling is based on an algorithm.

    uuuhm hasn't C.K. said that the profiling process is a special way of convolution ? i just looked but i can''t find the interview ... i mean a algorithm is a just way of telling a machine "what should i do when..." convolution processes feed the algorithm with parameters right ... like a convolution reverb sends impulses into a room and interprets the returning signal and feeds the algoritm with its parameters ... right ?

    Quote from collectiveamnesia

    Coldfrixon gave samples of an Axe-FX tone matching a profile pretty convincingly so I don't see how anyone here can talk about how the Axe just can't replicate tube tone,,

    When Coldfrixo or anyone including the AXE FX II or II as makers provide all users with "Tone Matching Packs" of vintage and rare collectible amps presets, your argument could be valid, I'd settle for any "Tone Match - Amp Pack" and not artist presets, as those are found in Helix and every other Fx processor on the planet.


    Think about it, if Tone Matching was anything but gimmick, how come they don't release Amp Packs like Kemper does.?? It really is a rhetorical question but if you feel like answering it, please point me to some Amp Packs based on AXE FX II or III tone matching.


    Good luck. :)

    Quote from Bommel

    uuuhm hasn't C.K. said that the profiling process is a special way of convolution ? i just looked but i can''t find the interview ... i mean a algorithm is a just way of telling a machine "what should i do when..." convolution processes feed the algorithm with parameters right ... like a convolution reverb sends impulses into a room and interprets the returning signal and feeds the algoritm with its parameters ... right ?

    A lot of people have theorized it's some sort of convolution. I don't think Christoph has confirmed or denied it yet, though I'd be interested to read any interviews where he has. I was only pointing out that all modelers use algorithms, including the Kemper. The algorithm might perform a specific function, like profiling, but it's still based on an algorithm.

    Quote from Dean_R

    When Coldfrixo or anyone including the AXE FX II or II as makers provide all users with "Tone Matching Packs" of vintage and rare collectible amps presets, your argument could be valid, I'd settle for any "Tone Match - Amp Pack" and not artist presets, as those are found in Helix and every other Fx processor on the planet.
    Think about it, if Tone Matching was anything but gimmick, how come they don't release Amp Packs like Kemper does.?? It really is a rhetorical question but if you feel like answering it, please point me to some Amp Packs based on AXE FX II or III tone matching.


    Good luck. :)

    Dean, I didn't use the Tone Matching feature for the Axe FX sample in that blind test. I matched the Kemper using the Axe FX II's amp modeling exclusively.

    Few users of every product have special abilities to nail tones and get close. Why can't Fractal be nice to all their users of AXE FX II or III by providing them with "Tone Match Amp packs" if tone match was anything but a 20 year old technology that's being used to literally deceive Fractal users into thinking that t tone Match is like Profiling.

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    at around 3:00 he explains it just like i guessed it ... the test signals feed a algorithm with aroud 60 parameters how to react and what to do ...
    he also explaines the difference between his process and standard convolution

    Quote from Dean_R

    Few users of every product have special abilities to nail tones and get close. Why can't Fractal be nice to all their users of AXE FX II or III by providing them with "Tone Match Amp packs" if tone match was anything but a 20 year old technology that's being used to literally deceive Fractal users into thinking that t tone Match is like Profiling.

    Unfortunately, you're being dishonest. You're misrepresenting how FAS has described the Tone Matching feature. They have never claimed that it's like profiling. In fact, Cliff has stated that profiling is not the same as Tone Matching. Dean, you've made some good points in the past, but it's comments like this that detract from your credibility, in my opinion.

    Quote from Bommel

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    at around 3:00 he explains it just like i guessed it ... the test signals feed a algorithm with aroud 60 parameters how to react and what to do ...
    he also explaines the difference between his process and standard convolution

    If only I spoke German.


    He also mentions a profiling algorithm in this interview.

    Quote from Dean_R

    Few users of every product have special abilities to nail tones and get close. Why can't Fractal be nice to all their users of AXE FX II or III by providing them with "Tone Match Amp packs"

    Tone Matching works by comparing your guitar's tone to a source tone. Use a different guitar from the one you used to create the Tone Match and the results will generally sound different. That applies to Bias Head, FabFilter and any other plugin or application with EQ matching.

    Quote from Dean_R

    When Coldfrixo or anyone including the AXE FX II or II as makers provide all users with "Tone Matching Packs" of vintage and rare collectible amps presets, your argument could be valid, I'd settle for any "Tone Match - Amp Pack" and not artist presets, as those are found in Helix and every other Fx processor on the planet.


    Think about it, if Tone Matching was anything but gimmick, how come they don't release Amp Packs like Kemper does.?? It really is a rhetorical question but if you feel like answering it, please point me to some Amp Packs based on AXE FX II or III tone matching.


    Good luck. :)

    Does Fractal need to copy the Kemper model of offering packs? It's all already in the hardware. Only needs work to tweak. Axe-FX users do share tone matches, but users already have control over a modeled amp.
    You avoid the point of Coldfrixon matching a Kemper profile with his Axe. Axe users or Cliff offering "tone match packs" doesn't mean such a thing can't be done. The more likely answer is Axe users don't share the same need for packs as Kemper users because a Kemper needs a present amp to copy where the Axe does not.


    Nothing is a gimmick if it's useful. EQ matching has been around a long time because it's useful, even if not unique to the Axe-FX. It looks like you're trying to focus on minutiae to downplay the Axe-FX as a whole, or commenting negatively on a video of a poor Axe tone while ignoring other videos and clips. I have no skin in this game as a Kemper user but this thread reflects poorly on this community.

    Its interesting to go to the AFX forum, and see reverse take of tone to the convo here. One thing that struck me was the talk of if too much alteration to the original profile on the KPA, it starts to diminish or degrade the profile. I’ve somewhat experienced that myself and feel you can’t tweek too far or it starts to lose something.

    Quote from ColdFrixion

    Unfortunately, you're being dishonest. You're misrepresenting how FAS has described the Tone Matching feature. They have never claimed that it's like profiling. In fact, Cliff has stated that profiling is not the same as Tone Matching. Dean, you've made some good points in the past, but it's comments like this that detract from your credibility, in my opinion.

    Again you resort to personal attacks without knowledge, but using the honor system, Ill point you to a small snippet of the many dishonest outrageous things that CLiff specifically wrote about the topic of tone match and how it relates to Profiling and let's see what you have to say for yourself


    Cliff had said and wrote much worse things but since there were too many of them, he couldn't keep up and clean it by later deleting and neither could his friends at the gearpage.


    google lead me to the Fractal Forum where Cliff had the audacity to explain profiling and claim that AXE FX uses profiling, (CLiff like everyone else knows nothing about profiling except for what CK made public, ye he uses the term profiling as being used in the AXE FX as if he's the expert on profiling :D )


    Would that be dishonest in your view if it truly happened? Let's see how honest you are/



    Cliff wrote on the fractal forum, (link provided below) referring the the AXE FX II


    "It now has Tone Matching which is arguably the most important part of profiling.


    Profiling consists of four parts:
    1. Finding the input EQ.
    2. Finding the "shape" and bias point of the nonlinear transfer function.
    3. Finding the output EQ.
    4. Finding the compression, or sag, characteristics.


    The Axe-Fx II with V6 uses a hybrid modeling/profiling approach."

    If you read the rest of what he wrote, you will realize that this was in 2012 and he was mixing facts with fiction to folks who have no idea what he was talking about except to be left with what I highlighted above."Tone Matching which is arguably the most important part of profiling"
    Really Cliff is claiming he used profiling in the amps he modeled. ?(8o and I'm dishonest. because I don't bobble my head in agreement when a famous engineer is lying through his teeth to sell his product claiming he also used Profiling.

    So does AXE FX III use profiling also? :) You can ask this question at fractal forum as a member, and I'd bet that some might think yes because they they think that "Tone matching which is arguably the most important part of profiling". this is pretty funny in addition to being unethical but for those with half a brain , it truly is hilarious.

    Thanks God I have a brain


    here's the link: you can't make this stuff up :P


    https://forum.fractalaudio.com…g-same-as-match-eq.52078/

    Quote from Dean_R

    When Coldfrixo or anyone including the AXE FX II or II as makers provide all users with "Tone Matching Packs" of vintage and rare collectible amps presets, your argument could be valid, I'd settle for any "Tone Match - Amp Pack" and not artist presets, as those are found in Helix and every other Fx processor on the planet.
    Think about it, if Tone Matching was anything but gimmick, how come they don't release Amp Packs like Kemper does.?? It really is a rhetorical question but if you feel like answering it, please point me to some Amp Packs based on AXE FX II or III tone matching.


    Good luck. :)

    Doesn’t Choptones sell AXE FX II preset packs based on tone matching?


    https://shop.choptones.net/fra…carved-vai-axefx2-amppack

    Of course competitors know what profiling is, it's their business to know. Kemper has a patent and patents are pubic so that their intellectual property is not trespassed. We'd be crazy to think others haven't looked it up and are crazier to think matching EQ curves is not a big portion of profiling. BIAS Amp 2 released a feature that looks suspiciously like profiling. They say it's a different algorithm than profiling with a Kemper. Clearly they know what constitutes a profile and it's obvious other competitors do, as well.


    Who in their right mind cares who says what if the tone match matches the tone in the end? That's really what matters. There's impressive examples online of it for anyone with functional ears. The rest is just noise.

    Quote from Dean_R

    It looks like they do,, how about Fractal did they release any Amp Packs? Do they have a lot of presets on the AXE forum of Tone Matched amps? Since I'm not a user, I remember last time I looked few years back, I couldn't find more than two or three, this can't be right correct?

    Why are you so adamant with Fractal making their own tone matches? They design component modeling and offer tone match as an added function. You seem to be of the mind that it's not validated until Fractal makes their own pack of EQ matches. I can't see how that makes any sense. Enough users have shown how useful it is.

    Quote from collectiveamnesia

    Does Fractal need to copy the Kemper model of offering packs? It's all already in the hardware. Only needs work to tweak. Axe-FX users do share tone matches, but users already have control over a modeled amp.
    You avoid the point of Coldfrixon matching a Kemper profile with his Axe. Axe users or Cliff offering "tone match packs" doesn't mean such a thing can't be done. The more likely answer is Axe users don't share the same need for packs as Kemper users because a Kemper needs a present amp to copy where the Axe does not.

    Quote from Dean_R

    Again you resort to personal attacks without knowledge


    It wasn't a personal attack. There was no malicious intent and it wasn't abusive. I've posted samples of the Axe FX reproducing a Kemper profile and you completely ignored it, which leads me to believe you ignore evidence that doesn't support your conclusions. If I'm wrong, by all means feel free to guess which sample the Axe FX is.



    Yes, that's the very post I was referring to in which Cliff specifically indicates there's a difference between profiling and EQ matching. He never implied that EQ matching is the same as profiling. Read what he wrote. He said it's part of it, and he's right. It is. The Kemper Profiling Guide states it point blank:


    "During the first phase, you will hear white noise with a rising amplitude. The Profiler is now collecting data about the frequency response of the reference amp."


    Quote from Dean_R

    Really Cliff is claiming he used profiling in the amps he modeled.

    Did you read the full content of his post? When he said V6 uses a hybrid modeling/profiling approach, he wasn't conflating profiling with Tone Matching. This is what he was referring to(read the bolded text):


    "With V6 the Axe-Fx II uses a combination of modeling and profiling. The amps are modeled using our exclusive multiple dynamic nonlinearities that very accurately replicate actual tube triodes and our new power amp modeling which fully recreates the behavior of a tube power amp and output transformer. The models are then refined by applying test tones to the actual amp to find deviations between the real amp and the model. For example, traditional circuit based modeling cannot account for things like parasitics since these are not represented by the schematic. So we now augment our traditional circuit modeling with measurements from the actual amp and store that data in the model."


    Test tones applied to the actual amp. That's what he was referring to with regard to profiling. He goes on to discuss Tone Matching because he had just implemented it and was describing the feature to Axe FX owners. He was not conflating Tone Matching with profiling or using the term 'Tone Matching' as a codified term for profiling. What you've done is taken his comments out of context, thought you understood them and then proceeded to use them as evidence to support your conclusion. You read the words "V6 uses a hybrid modeling/profiling approach' and then read the words Tone Matching and jumped to conclusions.


    Quote from Dean_R

    So does AXE FX III use profiling also? :) You can ask this question at fractal forum as a member, and I'd bet that some might think yes


    Can you cite a single post from any member at FAS's forum who's stated that Tone Matching is the same as profiling? Not just a part of it, but the same? Let me know.

    Quote from Dean_R

    It looks like they do,, how about Fractal did they release any Amp Packs? Do they have a lot of presets on the AXE forum of Tone Matched amps? Since I'm not a user, I remember last time I looked few years back, I couldn't find more than two or three, this can't be right correct?

    FAS sells cab packs. They don't sell Amp packs. Amp models are included free with updates. There are hundreds of user created Tone Matched presets available on Axe-Change.

    Quote from collectiveamnesia

    Of course competitors know what profiling is, it's their business to know. Kemper has a patent and patents are pubic so that their intellectual property is not trespassed. We'd be crazy to think others haven't looked it up and are crazier to think matching EQ curves is not a big portion of profiling...

    So cliff says "The Axe-Fx II with V6 uses a hybrid modeling/profiling approach"
    Why would Cliff say that? What about line 6, did they also use profiling, following your line of reasoning, then he's clearly lying, because he really can't use profiling without permission from Kemper.


    Even the use of that word "Profiling" can be even considered a violation of Patent Law, so you clearly see he was lying, no? Never mind how good or bad the AXE II is , why would I buy from someone who lies to his unsuspecting customers? I wouldn't , but considering that most guitar players will go to hell and back to get better tone, I like the rest of guitar players, if I had thought that the AXE II was better than Kemper I would have bought begrudgingly, but fortunate for me, Kemper was clearly the superior product by a stretch based on trying the sound and the feel.

    Edited once, last by Dean_R ().