Will Kemper ever release a FRFR Cab?

    Hi Guys,


    I'm almost ready to buy my Kemper (I actually wait on the Rack version and hopping it will have both Stomps external loop and Effects stereo loops :) ) and I was wondering, since a PowerAmp is apparently already in discussion, if Kemper will ever release a FRFR Cab to go and match perfectly with the Kemper with PowerAmp option?


    That way you can just grab your Kemper, the Cab and later the Foot Controller and you're ready to go...


    If not, what FRFR Cab and PowerAmp do you recommend?


    I never used FRFR cab and I was wondering if a Kemper with a FRFR Amp&Cab and a, let's say a Rectifier profile, will sound as real as a real Rectifier with a cab? From everything I heard so far, it looks like it sounds great for tracking, recording... where you have a limited sound (limited by the mic type, position, room, pre-amp, etc...). But when you really play an Amp, it sounds more full than the sound you will have on a record. Is there any way to get that feeling too with a Kemper? If yes, with what kind of setup?


    I know, two questions in one post, but I think they're related :)


    Thanks,
    Phil

    The best way to go to get an amp in the room sound is to go with a guitar cab, imho.
    Direct profile + power amp (tube or ss, it's up to you)+ guitar cabinet.


    I don't know if they'll ever release a frfr cab.

    Drummers, Singer, Keyboarders all go thru FRFR monitors on stage.
    I have never seen them discussing the best FRFR solution, that they could buy and carry on stage.
    Why is that?


    CK

    I believe it's because the whole linear approach a digital simulator requires is completely new for a rock guitarist.


    We've learned in 60 years of electric guitar that our instruments don't sound good in a mixer or in a keyboard amp (unless is a jazz guitar, or a hollow body and the like). We've learned that the most emotional findings in more than half a century has been taking the amps to work in their non-linear range.


    Furthermore, we're fetishists when it comes to instruments, amps, cabs, fx. We spend half of our time playing, and the rest (or more for some) dreaming of owning more stuff, because what we don't own is the cause of us not sounding good (and sometimes of not playing good as well).


    The idea that the non linearities of a distorted sound are been taken care in the algorithm is like trying to convince a Ferrari owner that the ultimate technological discovery is a simple living room on four wheels which you command by voice; you just tell it where you want to go, and it will do all by itself, in the fastest and most secure way.


    Where has all the magic gone? How can I feel cool any more if all I own is a computer and a PA monitor?
    When a rocker states they can't feel the "amp in the room", it's like the Ferrari owner when he can't loose 700 HP by just pressing a pedal; he can't feel his body pushed against the seat by a 600+ Nm torque. No more tyres screeching, no more that fast 6Th-3Th gear change that brings the engine to 8000 rmp @ 180 mph ...


    Mr Kemper, you should be aware that people like you and Mr Chase are killing (and burying) a 60-year old mythology. It takes time. Please, be patient with us :)

    CK,


    allow me to take a stab at your rhetorical question.


    First, I congratulate you for asking objective and challenging questions and indirectly stating the obvious....


    I think vocalist trust that the front of house sound is accurate and monitors are...well...just....MONITORS. However, many guitarist can't play without the tone and touch sensitivity of THE amp right at their feet....or within immediate sonic range....up close and personal. This most likely comes from sitting in a practice room right in front of the amp. That sound is not available anywhere else, certainly not to the audience... Large venues bands and big name acts don't have an amp at their feet or within that direct immediate range. They have monitors, earbuds (IEMs) or massive slaved backlines that don't sound like THE amp in there favorite setting. They are professionals and have left behind the illusion that there ideal "in the room" sound is something the audience will ever hear. They learn to play listening to the tone the audience hears....the same tone the KPA captures so accurately, the mic'd amp and cab.


    So my advice.....simplify your life and go pro, learn to play with the feel of a mic'd amp through FRFR amplification. Its different but hey, its what your audience hears. If that's not good enough, improve the overall tone in the front of house until it meets your standards. That way the audience can enjoy it too!


    This isn't meant to draw flames, just to state that modelling, and now profiling, really puts us, the amateur guitarist, in the same setting as the big boys. Just my humble opinion. If amps and cabs are your thing, enjoy!


    bd

    Well, I don't think it's that easy... having the mic'd sound is what the audience hear... on large venue only. On a small gig, there's no need for mic at all and the audience get the full sound.


    Then, a keyboard, drums, singer, etc... don't get their sound from the cab. For a guitarist, the cab is almost as important as the amp for the sound. If you'd capture just the amp without the cab, it would just sound like crap.


    Nonetheless, the Kemper Profiles are the results of mic'd sounds... which is perfect for studio use, because it's what you hear on the record.


    But when I play a real amp in a room, it doesn't sound at all like what you hear on a record, because there's not only 1, 2 or even 3 mics to capture the sound.
    So I'm not familiar with the FRFR cab, but I just find hard to understand how the Kemper could capture and re-create all sounds definitions you get from an Amp & Cab when you play in the room, when the profile has been done with only a portion of the sound.


    From my understanding, it's like if you sample 4 seconds of a song and you say you could re-play the entire 4 minutes of the song... Well, I guess that would be true for these 4 seconds, but you'd miss some parts.


    And it's not because it's the one of the solution most pro for large venues decided to adopt that it's the best one... I'm not playing for 25,000 people, never did and will probably never do. The only real solution I see is to profile the Amp only with a loadbox (such the Torpedo or so). I've been thinking about it. That way I would understand... full signal from the amp. And then we could use a real cab on stage... That would make more sense in my head :)


    I might be completely wrong, but that's how I understand it and that's why I'm asking the question :)


    Phil

    I think one of the reasons that guitarists have this hangover about a 'physical' amp, is because only an "electric guitar+amp" is historically considered a complete instrument and the immediate interaction between the player and the "instrument" is something that most musicians cherish.


    And I dont think guitarists are the only ones. Most drummers prefer real drums to electric pads for live playing, pianists still prefer a grand piano to a keyboard (for piano sounds), sax players/violin players/etc all seem to still be using miced instruments rather than their electric/digital versions even though great digital products are available today.


    However, this might change, but it will take time to change tradition.


    I think Kemper is absolutely amazing, stunning, groundbreaking, but I am one of those who would love to use the Kemper + cab as the perfect replacement for a tube amp (even though it is a great recording/direct to PA solution), simply because (in my outdated head), I still see the electric guitar as a "complete instrument" only when coupled with a amplified cabinet.

    Quote from xtcblue


    I think Kemper is absolutely amazing, stunning, groundbreaking, but I am one of those who would love to use the Kemper + cab as the perfect replacement for a tube amp (even though it is a great recording/direct to PA solution), simply because (in my outdated head), I still see the electric guitar as a "complete instrument" only when coupled with a amplified cabinet.


    Have you tried it yet?

    I don't want to be disrespectful, but you react just like the Kemper would be different from having a real amp with a mic'd cab on stage (such the AxeTrak or equivalent). I personally don't know how it could be possible.


    So in that case, in few time for very small venue, we already tried to have Monitoring (RCF) only for the guitarist with the amp running to a closed mic'd cab and it was good for the audience, but not at all for the guitarist. The feeling wasn't there and it was missing something...


    That's the reason why I'm asking for the cab situation for "live usage"

    hi everybody


    is this problem so very new? don't think so.


    i had a concert in 2010 with a big choir and initially the conductor insisted on me playing only via the PA.
    the sound mixer took my sound from my realtone amp D.I. and that was it.
    until i recognised the last minute (45 minutes before the gig) that I coudn't play that way.
    i had barely a control over my sound and couldn't feel it. ran to my car and plugged the amp into my box,
    adjusted the volume, so i didn't disturb the solo singer to my left and everything was just fine :)
    the bass player to my right used a combo as well in order "to have my sound" as he said


    and with the KPA it is no problem to have both of it. after this terrible experience i will always take a liitle
    combo or in my case a power amp and a small 1x12 with me to the concert in order to ...


    guessed it? HAVE MY SOUND under my control. nothing against the mixer it just feels better this way.


    cu

    My occupation: showing teenagers the many hidden secrets of the A-minor chord on the guitar.

    Quote from Spid

    I don't want to be disrespectful, but you react just like the Kemper would be different from having a real amp with a mic'd cab on stage (such the AxeTrak or equivalent). I personally don't know how it could be possible.


    So in that case, in few time for very small venue, we already tried to have Monitoring (RCF) only for the guitarist with the amp running to a closed mic'd cab and it was good for the audience, but not at all for the guitarist. The feeling wasn't there and it was missing something...


    That's the reason why I'm asking for the cab situation for "live usage"


    I can give you a suggestion: if you are likely to look for an amp-in-the-room sound coming from a FRFR you might consider this procedure.
    A) take the profile from the amp (i.g.: Mesa Rectifier). If you get to take it direct (DI box) you'll probably get better results;
    B) load a flat mic or a far field mic'd cab IR (like ownhammer ones or redwirez's) in an IR Loader such as Vortego boogex or Peavey Revalver III.V, and then take a profile of the cab. Guitar--->KPA IN--->KPA direct Out--->Audio interface IN (daw + IR loader)--->Audio interface out--->KPA return.
    C) save the "cabinet" section of this last profile;
    D) apply the cabinet you have saved to the first profile.


    Obviously you'll have to experiment, trying different IR mixes, using mono cable to bypass the pre's in the audio interface and so on.
    In this way you'll have something similar to the amp-in-the-room sound coming out from the FRFR monitor, but you'll send the same sound to the mixing board (i.e. no mic'd sound).


    If you want to have an amp in the room sound on stage and mic'd to the desk you have two differnet options.
    1) use a tube amp and a guitar cabinet, so no FRFR onstage.
    2) use the KPA monitor out (no cab selected) with another piece of equipment which might load far field IR's, then in the FRFR.
    Axe Fx, Digitech GSP1101 with custom firmware and Torpedo CAB can do that.

    Well, i have studio monitors ( krk rockit rp8 ) and a hughes and kettner tubemeister 1x12 v30 plus engl e840/50 tube power amp and THERE'S NO COLOR. The combination with the engl is WAY BETTER. it sound killer almost any profile and the tube taste...i have no words to describe it! Obviously the engl colour the sound a little bit, but for me, it colours it in a really good way. I had a rocktron velocity and its TERRIBLY DARK WITH THE KEMPER !!

    Now what I really would like to have is an active FRFR cab looking like a Marshall 4x12 cab (or even better a 2061cx sized 2x12).
    I already thought about building one myself. I'm thinking of something like an empty 2061cx cab and putting 12" FRFR speakers in it. There is also plenty of room for a power amp to fit in. That can't be too expensive to built. But I have no idea which speakers would be suitable for such an application. Never been into PA-Systems too much.

    Quote from ckemper

    Have you tried it yet?

    oops...I hope you didn't read my post wrong by any chance! 8)


    I am not implying the KPA would be bad through a miced cab, infact quite the opposite, as I think the KPA (with a poweramp + cab) would would be a very effective replacement for a traditional tube amp, and that's how I intend to use my KPA most of the time when get it in July!


    Haven't tried it yet but have been following some amazing results illustrated everywhere!

    Quote from Spid

    I'm not familiar with the FRFR cab, but I just find hard to understand how the Kemper could capture and re-create all sounds definitions you get from an Amp & Cab when you play in the room, when the profile has been done with only a portion of the sound.


    From my understanding, it's like if you sample 4 seconds of a song and you say you could re-play the entire 4 minutes of the song... Well, I guess that would be true for these 4 seconds, but you'd miss some parts.

    Hey Phil,


    I think you'd need a room for the... "amp in the room"! The KPA doesn't capture the room if not for a very small part, but when you play a KPA in a room you hear the room you're playing in.
    Honestly, I don't find the sample parallel being adequate.


    IMO, the "amp in the room" concept is used in several ways, often to say wrong things. We guitarists feel differences, and try to find ways to describe it.
    I believe Jay Mitchell's posts on the Fractal and TGP forums can be enlightening when it comes to acoustic perception, amp simulations, FRFR. In the months he has demolished a number of commonplaces and explained a good part of the underlying science. I've learned a lot from him, even tho I can't stand his manners :D

    Quote from Garrincha

    Now what I really would like to have is an active FRFR cab looking like a Marshall 4x12 cab (or even better a 2061cx sized 2x12).
    I already thought about building one myself. I'm thinking of something like an empty 2061cx cab and putting 12" FRFR speakers in it. There is also plenty of room for a power amp to fit in. That can't be too expensive to built. But I have no idea which speakers would be suitable for such an application. Never been into PA-Systems too much.

    I'd strongly advice against that! :thumbdown:


    A FRFR system is something very different from putting a linear cone into a wooden box, and way more complex. You might end up with a sound you like, but it would most probably be not coherent nor linear. It's a different world, and doesn't work at all like a guitar amp. Hi-Fi is a bad beast to tame.


    There already are some 2x12s which aim at being FRFR (you can search on the Fractal and the TGP forums for those) on the market, you might like to give them a try :)

    Quote from Spid

    I don't want to be disrespectful, but you react just like the Kemper would be different from having a real amp with a mic'd cab on stage (such the AxeTrak or equivalent). I personally don't know how it could be possible.

    Well, there could be differences anyway. For example the mic being used; its placement; or the fact that an on-stage mic'ing is capturing more than the cab's sound, including phase cancellations from the other amps & monitors, noise, stage vibrations (musicians jumping, drummer hitting)...

    Quote

    So in that case, in few time for very small venue,
    we already tried to have Monitoring (RCF) only for the guitarist with
    the amp running to a closed mic'd cab and it was good for the audience,
    but not at all for the guitarist. The feeling wasn't there and it was
    missing something...

    Do you mean an isolated box, or a closed back guitar cab?
    If the former, the combination of one specific mic placed in a specific way in an isolated box may sound way different from another one. Then you have the mic's signal preamplified at the mixer, then amplified, then brought back to the monitors... a long route, lots of signal degradation...
    A KPA natively operating at a line-level and feeding an RCF - NX12 SMA with the proper profile (so: which amp? Which mic(s)? Which placement? Which settings? And so on) can sound very different.


    One last thought: setting an amp for a sound we like, closing it into an iso box, mic'ing it, amplyfying it and listening to it through a stage monitor fed from the mixer isn't likely to give back the sound we started from. You should set the amp's tonestack the way it sounds best in that specific contest, which may vary a lot. That's why a KPA feeding your personal FRFR monitor will sound better IMO :thumbup:

    I think we try to make a digital device into something it is not....it'll never be an amp in a room. It's designed to sound like a mic'd amp which is what we hear on recordings. Room simulation can be added at the DAW or console. Getting past that and working with what the KPA IS yields awesome results....but its a paradigm shift. Anyone who plays larger venues is already removed from the "amp in a room" affair. Its the bedroom pickers and small venue guys that are struggling most with this, it seems.


    But if someone figures out how to get that direct near field cabinet sound for small venues, that'll be awesome!


    bd

    Quote from viabcroce

    There already are some 2x12s which aim at being FRFR (you can search on the Fractal and the TGP forums for those) on the market, you might like to give them a try :)

    Yeah I know some of those. But unfortunately none of those come in the looks of a Marshall slant cab :( I can see a potential market for Marshall-style FRFR cabs :D