So basically if you own a non-powered Kemper and thought you could upgrade, you can't

Quote from EmpireNine

It's not the 1000 rig limit that I am worried about - it's more each profile is what 4KB? We are already having to reduce the rig limit to allow for software updates. Just how much is really left for future updates and what that lack of foresight will do for the future before we have to upgrade again because of the tiny amount of space left on the unit?

I don't know, it may be all fine, but after the power-amp issue I'm just wondering how it will work in the future.

The typical midi controller can switch 128 rigs. The most advanced could theoretically switch 128 banks of 128 (though I've never seen one which can). Consider yourself extremely lucky the product you purchased supports up to 1000 presets, way more than any other unit I've ever owned.

Quote from EmpireNine

Having to downgrade the rig limit because of a software update tells me that there should have been more thought about the OS space and how it would affect future updates. People are still asking about core features, yet already we are having to make more space for software updates.

Limiting the number of profiles to 1000 isn't a downgrade. Early last year, shortly after the KPA became widely available, when users asked how many profiles the KPA could store the answer from Kemper was 1000. See this thread from February 2012. There's probably an even earlier post from someone at Kemper stating the 1000 profile limit. I don't think it was a lack of thought about the OS space it's just that the limit wasn't a hard one and users didn't know about it until it became an issue with the addition of new features.

That's great, but again the issue is not the amount of rigs (hopefully made more manageable by a librarian), but the amount of space left available for updates and whether the product will be comprised as has been done with early adopters who thought they could add a power amp.

I can forgive performance mode, undo/redo - ok I will wait. Customers buying products on the assumption it will do what they need later (upgrade the power amp) is the real issue here.

If they couldn't foresee about problems adding a power amp, what makes everyone so sure there is enough space left to upgrade it efficiently in the future too? Already there are compromises with each update and the rack version has only started shipping.

I would happily be proven wrong, but it's just a bit worrying that's all

Quote from EmpireNine

That's great, but again the issue is not the amount of rigs (hopefully made more manageable by a librarian), but the amount of space left available for updates and whether the product will be comprised as has been done with early adopters who thought they could add a power amp.

I can forgive performance mode, undo/redo - ok I will wait. Customers buying products on the assumption it will do what they need later (upgrade the power amp) is the real issue here.

If they couldn't foresee about problems adding a power amp, what makes everyone so sure there is enough space left to upgrade it efficiently in the future too? Already there are compromises with each update and the rack version has only started shipping.

I would happily be proven wrong, but it's just a bit worrying that's all

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No offense, but anyone buying a product based on potential future updates is doing it wrong. While I get your frustration to some degree, I think you're off base here.

They are not going to be allowed to sell something that has no conformity nor warranty.

Quote from kojak_

why isn't selling the poweramp on it's own for installation "at own risk" not an option?

Don't blame the Kemper GmbH for this - the EU (European Union) has some really very strange, biased laws!!!

I remember when I first discovered the ECHOPLEX looper it was a very small company that had lots of problems complying with those EU laws. I personally couldn't care less about a built-in poweramp because IMHO the whole idea of a powered Profiler does not make much sense. I prefer powered speakers. But if there will be any settlement for those who want to upgrade "at own risk", it will certainly not be published openly in an internet forum for all those lawyers plain to read!

Quote from fretboardminer

Don't blame the Kemper GmbH for this - the EU (European Union) has some really very strange, biased laws!!!

+1 ..but not only the EU.

Quote from Gitarrenschlumpf

+1 ..but not only the EU.

Yes, you are right. If it is about US indemnity laws it won't help if we sign a term agreeing that we lose our warranty.

Quote from Will_Chen

No offense, but anyone buying a product based on potential future updates is doing it wrong. While I get your frustration to some degree, I think you're off base here.

At the time of purchase, why would anyone have thought any different though? That's what customers were told. The big hole is where the future upgrade for the power amp goes right? What about the customers who can't afford it at the time, who wanted to upgrade later?

It's nice to have a choice.

As a consequence, my head isn't upgradeable anymore, has lost it's second-hand value and the only customer path is a convoluted rebate.

Again, I'm sticking with it and love what it does. I just think (rather obviously) this could have been handled a lot, lot better.

Quote from fretboardminer

Don't blame the Kemper GmbH for this - the EU (European Union) has some really very strange, biased laws!!!

I'm guessing eu laws don't see the adding of the power amp as "modernization" but as building of a whole new device that needs to be CE-certified again.

Well guys, i absolutely agree with the guys who feel disappointed.
I understand that rules must be respected, bit i think that this kind of laws where already existing, one year ago too.
OK, selling is an option, but consider that 1200 euros on eBay are, more or less 1100 euros (fees for ebay and PayPal).
I don't know how's the market in germany, but here in Italy si a PITA to sell anything on the used market because of the crysis.
I understand that you cannot thake everything in consideration, but i think that you can understand why people feel pissed off.
I don't want to be offensive, but i see some improvvisation about this story.

It shows a massive lack of foresight as I mentioned - shouldn't this have all been checked beforehand? My friends/fellow musicians don't want to buy this off me for a decent price, because the second-hand value has plummeted and they know they can't add a power amp now.

Kemper are assuming you can sell this thing for a certain price. What if you don't use eBay/PayPal or are not comfortable sending your £1000+ gadget through the post?

It's just a mess and other companies would be rightfully brought to task on it.

It sucks... but what can Kemper do? I mean, of course they could have researched it before.... but who assumes that there are stupid laws like that?
But I also don't know why they don't sell them seperately (just like the Camplifier), shouldn't be too hard to connect, but I'm sure there are reasons for that too.

I think many men are generally way too concerned about the future of the profiler.
To the people who absolutely can't stand the hole in the back of the KPA:
Why not buy a camplifier?

Should have researched it, surely. Or is this some newly introduced EU law?

What if the price you can get for the original is more than a 300€ difference (by that I mean less in total than a new amp-less unit)?

This is pretty disappointing.

This may be a stupid idea.

But why can't you send your old Non powered Kemper back and they send you back a new powerd one?
Obviously you pay for the amp.

This way they do not have to open the device.

They could sell the old devices with a 100 euro discount maybe.

This way it would be cheaper for both parties.

Just a suggestion.

Take this situation as a chance to reconsider if an active FRFR speaker might be a better choice in the first place.
Like someone else said before: Would you expect a synthesizer to have built-in power amp?

I think I'll just use my EHX Magnum to power the KPA if I want to use it with a regular guitar cab. I mean, it's good enough for Stephen Carpenter with his axe-fx live rig.

I'll even have enough room left to stick a delay pedal in the back with it.

Quote from EmpireNine

At the time of purchase, why would anyone have thought any different though? That's what customers were told. The big hole is where the future upgrade for the power amp goes right? What about the customers who can't afford it at the time, who wanted to upgrade later?

It's nice to have a choice.

As a consequence, my head isn't upgradeable anymore, has lost it's second-hand value and the only customer path is a convoluted rebate.

Again, I'm sticking with it and love what it does. I just think (rather obviously) this could have been handled a lot, lot better.

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Sorry man, but anyone who buys products based on future upgrades/add ons has set themselves up to be disappointed. Kemper could have gone out of business the day after you purchased, or the power amp might have been bad quality or super expensive (technically you can buy an optional power amp, you just get a free KPA attached to it). No second hand value has been lost. I do agree with your other point that the product was likely rushed to market. But really, that has simply provided me the positive experience of having a KPA to play rather than any frustration as I bought the unit based on what it could do, not what it might do.

Quote from nakedzen

I think I'll just use my EHX Magnum to power the KPA if I want to use it with a regular guitar cab. I mean, it's good enough for Stephen Carpenter with his axe-fx live rig.

I'll even have enough room left to stick a delay pedal in the back with it.

I've used the magnum 44 with the KPA, neer thought about sticking it in the back, but it would certainly fit!