I still Can't understand this clean sense thing

    I have read and read on the forum and wiki about clean sense, yet what is described is not what happens for me.


    If I have the gain control at 0, I get very little sound from the KPA to my speakers. If I turn Clean Sense all the way up, it comes up in volume some but not much. If I turn the gain up, the volume comes up with gain and gets very loud and distorted.


    I had thought that the clean sense adjustment could balance the volume (say at 0 and at 4) but that the 4 setting would start to distort and the 0 setting would be clean. There is no way I could ever balance the volume because my volume always increases with gain regardless of the clean sense setting. I have my distortion sense set a 0. My input led always lights green, never red, except on some rigs if I strum very hard.


    This bugs me because I have read on the wiki that I should be able to balance the volume between a gain at 0 (totally clean) and a gain of 4(Distorted). This is an impossibility for me because clean sense effects volume for both gain at 0 and gain at 4 equally. I really think this is why I have so much pick noise. The KPA for me has a weird (pluck,pluck) attack sound that seems stronger many times than the actual notes picked. This can really be heard in the delay effects which seem to echo (plucks) pick attacks more than echo tones.

    Different guitars may require different settings.


    Having said that -


    Plug your guitar of choice into the KPA.


    Push the input menu.


    Set both the clean and distortion sense to zero.


    Turn your guitar volume control up to full.


    Strum your guitar very hard while alternating turning up the clean sense until it starts to turn red then back it down a bit until it's green, a little bit of orange is Ok.


    Leave the distortion sense alone.


    Now relax, exit the input menu and enjoy the KPA.


    Re- pick noise - are you using compression stomps?, if not there is a very useful feature in the amp menu to reduce this.

    New talent management advice to Laura Cox -


    “Laura want to break the internet? let’s shoot another video of you covering the Nightrain solo in the blue singlet, but this time we’ll crank up the air conditioning”.

    From your description something is not set correctly. Are you sure that parallel path is not checked? Press the rig button, go to last page (4) and make sure that parallel path is not checked. I'm asking since you said very little sound was coming out.

    Thanks for the input. I guess my guitars must have lower output than most. I am mostly into vintage sound and even my Les Paul is fairly low output.


    If I turn clean sense all the way to 12 then with my gain at 0, I have nearly the same output level as gain set at 4 but gain at 4 is still louder.


    I do not have parallel paths checked.


    I have never liked the pick attack sound that the KPA produces, it just doesn't sound right. Even using the pick adjustment in the amp menu doesn't fix the issue. I have very little problem with pick noise on the Eleven Rack and HD500. KPA just sounds wrong somehow,


    It is not such a problem until I use delay or reverb. I am also finding out that if I turn up the bandwidth a little and choose a negative center frequency that it helps to reduce the strong repeating sound of pick attack. I think it will require more playing with the settings to find what works best.


    I do wish that there were more digital delay options and ability to set lag time on the delay or so that you can reduce the percussive effect on subsequent reverberations.
    Delays, Parametric EQ, and spring reverb are all effects that I would like to see enhancements to.

    The clean sense is an absolutely great tool, Even using the same guitar, I use different levels depending on the profile. It's generally much more apparent what it is doing on obviously clean tones, and low gain semi broken up tones. Cranking it wayyyy up can really bring a profile to life. Also, I am not a fan of touching the gain control really. If the profile I like is slightly too gainy for my tastes, I will actually drop the distortion sense before I would even consider dropping the gain. Same thing If I need alittle extra push in the overdrive department and don't feel like coloring it with a pedal. This to me sounds more transparent and doesn't take away from the tone, which can happen when you go too far outside of the initial profiled gain level. Try this sometime. For this reason, I do not lock my input settings, but rather have them set up for each specific profile I am using, this works well for me, but may not for everyone.

    Quote from VESmedic1

    The clean sense is an absolutely great tool, Even using the same guitar, I use different levels depending on the profile. It's generally much more apparent what it is doing on obviously clean tones, and low gain semi broken up tones. Cranking it wayyyy up can really bring a profile to life. Also, I am not a fan of touching the gain control really. If the profile I like is slightly too gainy for my tastes, I will actually drop the distortion sense before I would even consider dropping the gain. Same thing If I need alittle extra push in the overdrive department and don't feel like coloring it with a pedal. This to me sounds more transparent and doesn't take away from the tone, which can happen when you go too far outside of the initial profiled gain level. Try this sometime. For this reason, I do not lock my input settings, but rather have them set up for each specific profile I am using, this works well for me, but may not for everyone.


    Couldn't have said it better myself. This is exactly what I do.

    I've not tried this approach but will do so as I too am a vintage player.
    Edit to post....tried this and it's not for me. I prefer to find the sweet spot got whatever git I,m using with each profile. I,ve never gone beyond 7.5. Even w 5.5k vintage strat pups.
    If the vol is low I usually turn up the cab. Vol.

    Edited once, last by old crow ().

    Quote from VESmedic1

    The clean sense is an absolutely great tool, Even using the same guitar, I use different levels depending on the profile. It's generally much more apparent what it is doing on obviously clean tones, and low gain semi broken up tones. Cranking it wayyyy up can really bring a profile to life. Also, I am not a fan of touching the gain control really. If the profile I like is slightly too gainy for my tastes, I will actually drop the distortion sense before I would even consider dropping the gain. Same thing If I need alittle extra push in the overdrive department and don't feel like coloring it with a pedal. This to me sounds more transparent and doesn't take away from the tone, which can happen when you go too far outside of the initial profiled gain level. Try this sometime. For this reason, I do not lock my input settings, but rather have them set up for each specific profile I am using, this works well for me, but may not for everyone.



    This is good info, thanks.


    I thought it was odd that some were reporting to keep clean sense low but in order for me to get what I considered proper sound I need to have it set high. Otherwise my clean level output is way too low.


    I will try using the distortion sense as you suggest because that makes sense to me. I always worry about messing with the original profile gain as I suspect that it was set that way based on the actual amp profile.


    Do you have any ideas on how to better reduce pick attack sound when using delays on the KPA? Like I mentioned before, it doesn't bother me while playing clean without a delay but playing partially distorted with delay (like a David Gilmour solo setting) I get a lot of annoying repeating pick noise, often louder than the initial note which decays in volume over time.

    Quote from VESmedic1

    The clean sense is an absolutely great tool, Even using the same guitar, I use different levels depending on the profile. It's generally much more apparent what it is doing on obviously clean tones, and low gain semi broken up tones. Cranking it wayyyy up can really bring a profile to life. Also, I am not a fan of touching the gain control really. If the profile I like is slightly too gainy for my tastes, I will actually drop the distortion sense before I would even consider dropping the gain. Same thing If I need alittle extra push in the overdrive department and don't feel like coloring it with a pedal. This to me sounds more transparent and doesn't take away from the tone, which can happen when you go too far outside of the initial profiled gain level. Try this sometime. For this reason, I do not lock my input settings, but rather have them set up for each specific profile I am using, this works well for me, but may not for everyone.



    Your pick sound is independent of the volume, hence the Clean Sense.
    Turn down 'Definition' in the Amp pages to balance your pick sound or try another pickup setting.
    Try another profile that fits better.


    Since your guitar seems to have a very soft output, this might be caused by using very thin strings that will also emphasize the pick sound. Actually we have never had a case where a full Clean Sense could not manage to bring the clean sound face to face with distorted tones.
    Record a sound clip, so the forum can tell if it really sounds odd, or maybe everything is just fine.

    Quote from VESmedic1

    The clean sense is an absolutely great tool, Even using the same guitar, I use different levels depending on the profile. It's generally much more apparent what it is doing on obviously clean tones, and low gain semi broken up tones. Cranking it wayyyy up can really bring a profile to life. Also, I am not a fan of touching the gain control really. If the profile I like is slightly too gainy for my tastes, I will actually drop the distortion sense before I would even consider dropping the gain. Same thing If I need alittle extra push in the overdrive department and don't feel like coloring it with a pedal. This to me sounds more transparent and doesn't take away from the tone, which can happen when you go too far outside of the initial profiled gain level. Try this sometime. For this reason, I do not lock my input settings, but rather have them set up for each specific profile I am using, this works well for me, but may not for everyone.


    I will have to dissappoint you. The Distorted Sense does nothing but offsetting the gain of the amp section, if no further distortion or compressor is active in the Stomp section.
    So if you feel the Distortion Sense will not further colour the sound, the same will happen by adjusting the amp gain.


    The distortion sense should be used for boosting the guitar in global means, as described in the manual.

    Quote from ckemper

    Your pick sound is independent of the volume, hence the Clean Sense.
    Turn down 'Definition' in the Amp pages to balance your pick sound or try another pickup setting.
    Try another profile that fits better.


    Since your guitar seems to have a very soft output, this might be caused by using very thin strings that will also emphasize the pick sound. Actually we have never had a case where a full Clean Sense could not manage to bring the clean sound face to face with distorted tones.
    Record a sound clip, so the forum can tell if it really sounds odd, or maybe everything is just fine.


    I am using a set of DR regular 10s on all my guitars, these strings are pure nickel and not thin. I suppose the pickup height could be raised to increase the output but I would expect more pickup noise would occur if the pickups were raised higher.


    When you say "never had a case where a full Clean Sense could not manage to bring the clean sound face to face with distorted tones", What is the procedure to test this?


    The KPA wiki says that If I take a given profile and turn the gain down to 0, I should have the same output volume as the same profile with the gain at 4. The only difference should be that the 0 setting is clean tone and the 4 setting is distorted.


    In my case, I must turn the clean sense all the way up to 12 in order for the perceived volume at 0 gain to come close to perceived volume at 4 gain. And if I turn the gain up higher, the perceived volume goes up even more.


    Is this a correct procedure to test "Clean sense" setting, or should I be setting it based on some other method. In all cases I usually leave the distortion sense at 0.

    Quote from ckemper

    I will have to dissappoint you. The Distorted Sense does nothing but offsetting the gain of the amp section, if no further distortion or compressor is active in the Stomp section.
    So if you feel the Distortion Sense will not further colour the sound, the same will happen by adjusting the amp gain.


    The distortion sense should be used for boosting the guitar in global means, as described in the manual.



    Ck, while I definitely understand what you are saying, and obviously won't disagree with the profilers designer, i can only go by what my ears say. Maybe the way I'm describing it is wrong? I guess what I'm saying is that it is much easier to "fine tune" for lack of a better term the distortion/gain of the profile than it is with the actual gain knob itself. It's much more subtle I guess than decreasing the gain knob to my ears. Does that make more sense, or am I still full of it? Haha! :thumbup:



    Also to the original poster, I wouldn't worry about what "others" say in regards to clean sense... Trust me, cranking it up till you get some orange on the inpu LED once in awhile will bring ANY clean profile to life. Add some minimal compression and maybe a light boost with a pure boost if at all needed, and you can basically make ANY clean profile sound phenominal, it really is that easy :)

    I didn't understand the original post to a certain extent. If your problem is volume, you need to turn up the rig volume so that the level of a clean tone matches a distorted tone on another profile. Or alternatively, turn down rig volume on your distorted profile, then adjust master volume to a level that is audible.


    My approach to clean sense is to have one setting per guitar. Then, if I switch to another guitar, I would just browse through the input settings to select the appropriate clean/distorted sense settings for that instrument. I don't use it on a "per profile" basis, since I figure that my guitar characteristics would remain the same, just the sound of the profile changes. And in such a situation, I'd tweak the profile, rather than trying to tweak my guitar (through clean/distorted sense) to achieve the desired results.

    Quote from nightlight

    I didn't understand the original post to a certain extent. If your problem is volume, you need to turn up the rig volume so that the level of a clean tone matches a distorted tone on another profile. Or alternatively, turn down rig volume on your distorted profile, then adjust master volume to a level that is audible.


    My approach to clean sense is to have one setting per guitar. Then, if I switch to another guitar, I would just browse through the input settings to select the appropriate clean/distorted sense settings for that instrument. I don't use it on a "per profile" basis, since I figure that my guitar characteristics would remain the same, just the sound of the profile changes. And in such a situation, I'd tweak the profile, rather than trying to tweak my guitar (through clean/distorted sense) to achieve the desired results.


    No, I am not really talking about the volume of one rig vs. another rig.


    If you read the KPA wiki that describes the proper setting and response of the "Clean Sense" parameter, here is what it says.


    Clip from Wiki "You can think of distortion and clean as two parallel paths in the Kemper. Every profile contains a clean and distorted sound. The Gain control not only changes the amount of gain on the distorted path, but the volume of the two paths. Gain at 0 contains only clean tone. Gain at ~4 or above is only distorted tone. Anything in between is an interpolation of both.
    Clean Sense (CS): whether CS controls loudness depends on how much distortion there is (what you hear). It affects loudness from completely clean into some distortion (Gain 0-4 on my setup, with DS at 0). How the amp is profiled doesn't matter - only the current Gain setting matters.
    Distortion Sense (DS): A pre-gain level adjustment of the "distortion path". It results in more/less distortion and applies to all rigs. Whether CS has an impact on loudness still only depends on what you hear (how much distortion). IOW, the transition between clean/dist on the Gain control will be shifted up/down as you adjust DS.
    When you push the Input button you have Gain, CS and DS right beside each other, so you can play around with them simultaneously and quickly hear the results"


    It goes on to say that the "Clean Sense" should be set so that the perceived volume with the gain at 0 should be the same as the perceived volume with the gain set at 4 or above for distorted sounds.


    My issue is that in order to get close to the same perceived volume for clean and distorted gain settings, I need to crank the "Clean Sense" to 12 and I still can't exactly balance perceived clean tone (Gain at 0) with perceived volume of distorted tone (Gain > 4).


    So it makes me think that there is a problem with either my KPA or with the way I am interpreting the method to set the "Clean Sense" parameter.


    It also makes me wonder if that is why I have too much perceived pick noise when playing distorted. If my 'Clean Sense" is unable to balance the gain then possibly I am not getting enough tone signal to the amp and instead am getting too much percussion noise from the pick instead.

    Quote from HappyPicker

    My issue is that in order to get close to the same perceived volume for clean and distorted gain settings, I need to crank the "Clean Sense" to 12 and I still can't exactly balance perceived clean tone (Gain at 0) with perceived volume of distorted tone (Gain > 4).


    Could you post a file showing the clean/distorted balance by turning the gain knob?


    I prefer having just slightly higher loudness in clean sounds compared what a real tube amp would produce when riding its gain knob. Having the same loudness going from clean to distorted would seem very unnatural to me. Methinks the distorted sounds will seem wimpy that way.

    When I have a vintage guitar and don't want pick sound I use a 1mm pick. Gotta play with different ones to see which works best, not only the material (and their differing levels of hardness) but also the cut on the end (very sharp V versus a softer U like end and in-betweens)


    This of course is for single note picking and double stops. If I'm strumming rhythm I use a thinner picks.


    Think of the Pick as a mini-Amplifier and as the pick gets thinner it's attacking "pick" sound gets louder. If you solve your problem at the pick, you don't have to strangle your amp tone at all, ha ha!


    Of course, you can also roll back the tone knob a bit to control the pick attack and use a brighter pickup to compensate if you like brightness. Most guitars don't do this well. At that point you start getting into Pot and Cap mods to get a better control. And for me, I like knob indicators so I can see what frickin' number I like for a particular tone.


    There's a lot of ways to skin this cat.


    Anyhow, record the different approaches and LISTEN back and see which sound better. It's harder to discern when playing than hearing comparisons played back to you. You might be surprised that you like a relatively darker tone than what you currently think you like.

    Edited once, last by db9091 ().

    Thanks db9091,


    Yeah, my issue is not so much pick noise due to the pick used or my playing technique. It is due to the KPA as I don't have the same problem with an Eleven Rack or an HD500. Also it isn't so much the clean tone pick noise that bothers me, it's more the distortion tone pick noise.


    I think I am going to try raising my pickups to increase my pickup output level. That might make it easier to use clean sense to balance the sound and help with my distortion sound having more input from the note picked and not from the percussion of the pick.


    For example, I can put my guitar volume at max, Set clean Sense at 12, absolutely hammer the strings and not get much more than a flash of yellow from the input LED, when the gain is at 0. I think that weak of output just doesn't drive the KPA properly and causes some of the issues I am hearing.