Different sounds at different live venues

    Hey Guys,


    So I brought my Kemper to a gig this past weekend, not to use for the whole night, but just to test it out on a PA system and see how it sounds before I actually bring it as my sole setup for a night. I've been using it with the Yamaha DXR10 at home, and it sounds great aside from some issues I've been having with the DXR (nothing to do with the Kemper).


    When I got it to the gig, I plugged in from the left mono out, to a channel on the board via XLR. Everything was hooked up the same way I had it hooked up for the DXR (aside from using the different output - used the monitor out for the DXR). On both outputs, I had it set to Master Mono, output set to -15dB, cabinet feature was enabled, etc.


    Anyway, when I tested it through the PA, using the same AmpFactory profile I've been using (AF9-BE SS Full 4+), it sounded okay, but not great. It had a bit of "fizz" to it rather than sounding like a nice thick guitar, the way it did with the Yamaha. The PA was a decent system. Big 3-way PA, mostly JBLs (JBL bins and tops). I'm not sure what model the tops were, but the brand was JBL and they were about the size of a 4x10 bass cab.


    So what I'm wondering is, the main purpose of the Kemper is supposed to be getting high quality sounds, and the ability to have tons of different amps at your disposal. Both of which it does wonderfully. However, the idea behind it is that it's supposed to be giving you consistent sounds. But it occurred to me this weekend, that just like a regular guitar amp, even though I'm running direct to FOH, my sound is going to be different every time we play on a different PA system, even if I have the sound guy set the EQ for my channel to flat (as I did in this case).


    I understand that this isn't the fault of the KPA, because technically, it is going to send the same consistent sound each time regardless of what I'm using to monitor the sound. But how do you all get around the fact that your profiles and rigs are going to sound so different, every time you play on a different PA? How do you minimize these inconsistencies as much as possible. Or is this something that simply can't be controlled since we're at the mercy of whatever PA the clubs are running? For the most part, they're all nice PA systems. But the sound is going to be different with all of them.

    Quote from OhG

    But how do you all get around the fact that your profiles and rigs are going to sound so different, every time you play on a different PA? How do you minimize these inconsistencies as much as possible. Or is this something that simply can't be controlled since we're at the mercy of whatever PA the clubs are running? For the most part, they're all nice PA systems. But the sound is going to be different with all of them.


    In the end, there are only so many variables you can control and/affect. You'll never be able to control the venue's sound crew, choice of PA, the size and shape of the room (including building and finishing materials), the humidity and airflow, crowd, and the myriad other factors affecting the acoustics in any given space.

    PA systems almost never sound linear out of the box. If the PA system is not stationary installed at the venue and you are concerned about your sound i would try to contact the FOH engineer and ask him to bring a digital EQ with an RTA mic and calibrate the system before the sound check. The Behringer DEQ2496 does not cost much and does the job nicely. It also can help you at your home studio or improve the sound of your FRFR speakers.

    I always have my live rigs set to a thick sound because most of the FOH setups are equalized to the room and also the vocals. So the chance of the highs and fizz being equalized higher for the PA is very good.


    Best practice is to have your DXR10 at the show, plugged in and ready. Then when you have the sound man do your sound check, listen that he is setting your Eq in the PA to match what is coming out of your DXR10. They can certainly take the highs out and balance the sound.


    Just let him know to NEVER turn the gain or trim up on your channel. Only adjust the fader. This method has saved me tons of frustration. I just tell them keep your hands off that trim knob, cause I am sending you an amped signal. There is no need for more amping. If you need more volume; I will send it from the Kemper. Works like a charm, and if it does not send him a signal that is hotter then hell and he will have no reason to touch that trim knob. LOL

    “When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.”

    Like 1

    Thanks guys. I know this is an issue with traditional amps being mic'd as well, so it's certainly not a knock on the Kemper. @SanctumSolaris, setting the sounds a little thicker than normal is a good point. Also, the trim knob. I'll have to "lay down the law" with certain sound guys who are certainly guilty of using that knob as a volume adjustment (including the guy we just used last week).

    I'm going to suggest a completely different way to look at this:


    Most sound and mix issues that annoy musicians are simply not heard by the audience. The crowd is there to have a good time, and be entertained.


    A guitarist who is concerned about how the PA sounds will not give his best performance. And, a guitarist who tries to tell the FOH engineer how to mix and EQ the band may not be in the mix at all, once the show starts ;)


    We *never* listen to how our individual instruments (or the entire band) sounds in the FOH PA system. We make sure it sounds good onstage, so we can give our best onstage performance.


    That is what matters to the audience.


    If there is a house Sound Engineer, you will sound better than anyone else who plays there, as long as you are nicer to him than anyone else who plays there :)

    I have playd my kemper with different PA`s but not have the issue of fissy soynd.. my own band also have JBL, not sure about the series! hehe Presonus studiolive mixer set quite flat. Bassresponse do change from venue to venue but anyway more controlable then miced up guitarcab! no rumbling bass and feedback. I am realy satisfyed in the way the Kemper sound live.. I use it 95% live anyway

    I am 50/50 on the other solutions suggested.


    I do agree that you should know your venue and who is running sound. If they are bad and the system is bad, choose another venue. At least that is what we do.


    Many times we play shows with no cabs, so we rely on the monitor system of the venue. Believe me if it sounds bad we will say something. I could understand not paying attention to the FOH when we run cabs as we are not really hearing those PA speakers. However, most of the places we play have mega monitor systems that included 5 foot tall side fills being fed straight from the FOH. To say I am not going to hear what the audience hears in that situation would be crazy.


    So i listen carefully and always make sure that trim know is down. Yeah we have got some kick back from sound men, but after they get a ringing feedback in their ear from raising the trim, they quickly understand.


    p.s. we are a metal band and use high gain sounds at extreme volumes. You can watch our videos on Youtube and see what I mean by a no cab situation. Especially at Tomcats West, and the Curtain Club venues in Dallas, Texas.

    “When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.”

    Like 1

    Unfortunately, in this situation, you're gonna have to rely on the sound guy to get a good sound coming out of the mains. This is not only due to the sound system he uses, but also the acoustics of each venue.


    With most profiles, the engineer will encounter the same issues as he does with a miced up amp (unless the profiles were tweaked to work in a live situation). Among those things is to bring up the mids, so that the guitar can cut through the band, and to apply judicial amounts of Low/Hi cut filters. I probably wouldn't do too much beyond that actually, and ONLY if necessary. The venue is a huge part of it though.


    HTH

    I've had mixed results running through a PA.


    When I originally tried it, I got a very fizzy sound, didn't sound good. It put me off trying it and to date I still haven't run it without a cab....BUT.....


    When I had chance to experiment with our PA at home, I got some really good sounds. It turned out to be 2 issues:
    Even with the db turned down to around -15db, it was originally cooking the desk due to the type of input. This didn't show on the LED's on then desk just as distorted input hence I assumed it was something else
    The profile I used was set for my guitar cab and sounded duff generally as a profile through an FRFR system


    I know you're using a DXR so the cab aspect is less of an issue but my point is the Kemper is very reactive. I've never had a regular amp that has shown up so much the variation in cab quality.


    Don't lose faith, it takes some time. I nearly gave up a few times but I'm so happy these days...you just need a bit of time to experiment but its worth it in the end...I stayed guitar cab first to get that running, I'm working my way to PA/FRFR...


    Hope that helps...

    Don't think of your FOH tone as the tone which you've worked for, think of it as part of the band mix. The same way that a snare drum going through the FOH will sound different at every location, even if using the same PA and mics (the snare might be tuned differently, slightly different mic placement & different room acoustics etc), it doesn't matter at all. As long as the FOH engineer makes the whole band sound good, the only person scrutinising that element will be on stage performing to the audience.


    In other words, don't stress about it. It doesn't matter.

    Quote from chu

    Don't think of your FOH tone as the tone which you've worked for, think of it as part of the band mix. The same way that a snare drum going through the FOH will sound different at every location, even if using the same PA and mics (the snare might be tuned differently, slightly different mic placement & different room acoustics etc), it doesn't matter at all. As long as the FOH engineer makes the whole band sound good, the only person scrutinising that element will be on stage performing to the audience.


    In other words, don't stress about it. It doesn't matter.


    This.
    Guitarists all over the world in the end are at mercy of soundguys, and always have been.
    The good thing is with the profiler they can't screw things up so easily. ;)

    See if you can get an input that is line level and bypass the mic preamps as I ran into this before and it makes a world of difference. I found the Kemper sounded fuller and less "fizzier" through a line input vs regular mic input. And of course make sure the EQ strip on the board is set flat for your channel


    YMMV, IMHO etc etc

    Right on axeKiller! Thanks for the compliments. Yep, very much dig Kyuss. Lately been digging into more Mos Generator, Pelican and Mastodon.


    We start our concert season in a month and I am ready to get back out there. I have posted some of my settings on the forums and can post this years tones as well. I try to tweek each season after what I learned from the previous year. Always trying to evolve.


    Cheers.

    “When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.”

    Quote from danel59

    See if you can get an input that is line level and bypass the mic preamps as I ran into this before and it makes a world of difference. I found the Kemper sounded fuller and less "fizzier" through a line input vs regular mic input. And of course make sure the EQ strip on the board is set flat for your channel


    YMMV, IMHO etc etc


    I have not tought about this! I have to check out this on next gig! EQ is set flat, but not feel that the sound is fizzy anyway.. maybe it become better if i switch of mic preamp.. I have to say I have to little interest about PA nad how things work, and I dont know much about it!..In my band we use a Presonus Studiolive

    I'm not able to switch off the mic pre-amp on any of our boards. So would just dialing the trim knob back below unity help, and then just use the fader for volume adjustments?