Re-Refine

    It would be wonderful to be able to go back to a previously profiled amp and do the refine over again and try to make it better. I realize without the original setup you wouldn't be able to compare the real amp to the profiled amp, but my observation is that the more different sounds you use in the refine step the more accurate it becomes. And if you refine some more it again becomes more accurate.


    When I profile, for the refine step I use a prerecorded guitar sequence of chords, slaps, highly dissonant chords and all of the sound I can from the guitar. The track also has these sounds from several guitars. It works extremely well, but still not 100% exact. I think I could make a better track with more sounds, so the re-refine would be nice.


    Sent form my Shoe-Phone.

    But what would the kemper be refining "against" or in comparison to? Refining is quite powerful, but I'm quite positive it works by analyzing a given signal in comparison to profile. I suspect you could allow for "re-refining" of a profile, and that this could have some use.... say in cases where you'd wanna match your profile to something else later on... like some EQ match.. But I gather you'd still need a comparative signal, even if some digital sim (profiling EQ matched tones often not ideal, and this would probably complicate things further). Still, I would think it's better to do all this "live", with new profile to begin with, having the real amp there.


    As an experiment, you could 1) try setting a signal chain a certain way. Then 2) shoot a profile. You'll get a tone from kemper, ok. Then 3) refine and it may get closer (or not, in some cases). Then 4) profile the exact same set up again. Chances are you'll end up with a similar sounding pre-refined profile to your earlier pre-refined profile. Then 5) you may switch up amp settings drastically and refine, without shooting a whole new profile -- and you'll see how, at large, the goal of kemper is to match that "new" tone, even considering the initial pre-refined profile of different settings.


    It can still get pretty close to the new tone in many cases. In other words: the reference matters very very much.

    The bonanza

    @Dimi84 Imagine EQ match. You have to match to certain source spectrum. How you will define Match source signal if you do not have a source?

    Where is the reference point? You cannot reference to the profile becouse it will react always the same to the reference guitar signal. Only the source can have some differences.

    Quote from DamianGreda

    Imagine EQ match. You have to match to certain source spectrum. How you will define Match source signal if you do not have a source?

    Yes, aware of that.

    Quote from Dimi84

    But I gather you'd still need a comparative signal, even if some digital sim (profiling EQ matched tones often not ideal, and this would probably complicate things further). Still, I would think it's better to do all this "live", with new profile to begin with, having the real amp there.

    Was just trying to imagine some.. far fetched scenario this could be of some vague use. But then of course why not profile the amp sim together with the eq match -- why have a profile from earlier on to be "re-refined"? I guess there cooooould be some differences between initial profiling of real amp and refining with EQ matched amp sim.. compared to profiling the matched sim to begin with... that could lend some sense to this method, but doubt it.

    The bonanza

    I belive there are some tricks , when you can refine with some other gear(amp , cab , guitar , eq match plugin) to achive some interesting results. Never tried that. But There are still this "other " reference point. I think Some time ago and44 was talking about some tricks with profiling. Maybe it was about this kind of stuff.

    Quote from DamianGreda

    I belive there are some tricks , when you can refine with some other gear(amp , cab , guitar , eq match plugin) to achive some interesting results. Never tried that. But There are still this "other " reference point. I think Some time ago and44 was talking about some tricks with profiling. Maybe it was about this kind of stuff.

    There are many for sure. What I meant in this case is that initial profiling could produce certain results, in a manner different from refining, given a source -- so for example you could have a case where kemper profiles an amp well, but an amp sim badly (many don't profile well) and yet refining the EQ matched sim works well. Then the whole bonanza could give you some possibility to "re-refine" amp profiles with ok results without an amp. But this is such a particular bonanza, I'm not sure it makes as much sense bringing up on my part anyway :D


    Feature requests are cool, and cheers to the user for contributing. Kemper themselves would have the clearest answer about his request in particular. Just on my part it's hard to imagine refining working without a source -- what would it seek to achieve?

    The bonanza

    Okay. All points well taken. The reason it seemed viable to me is the fact that during the profiling process, the refine step is done without additional tones being sent out to the amp. It seemed to me (perhaps wrongly) that the only input to the refine process was the input of the guitar.


    It was an interesting idea anyway.


    Wolf

    Well , the idea is not bad at all. Take into consideration such scenario:

    - you have found nice profile, similiar sounding to you rig / desired sound

    - you can refine profile with eq match plugin so you don't have to use fx slot with eq to fine tune this rig ( keep in mind that i don't know how refine works)


    In this scenario re- refine make sense for Me.

    I misinterpreted the original request because I immediately thought of a situation where re-refinind or de-refining would be increadibly useful.


    I often find that the sound gets worse the more I refine. Or at least it reaches a point where it gets further and further away fromthe original source sound. Therefore, the ability to go back to the raw unrefined sound DURING the profiling session would be really helpful instead of scrapping the profile and running the test tones again. It would be even better if you could toggle back and forth between the source amp, raw profile and refined profile and go back a stage with regards to refining if the results are not pleasing.