Understanding Clean Sense & Distortion Sense Settings.

Quote from Guitartone

Seriously, over the last 10 months I've seen CK explain the Clean and Distortion sense knobs/settings over and over again

No. He is just repeating the same one explanation over and over again. That doesn't help. And making jokes about those who are still unclear about "these two knobs" won't help either.

Unless with high-gain sounds the word "clean sounds" and "distorted sounds" just don't work. On a well balanced crunch sound there is always both: clean and distorted. In the attac phase most of the sound is distorted and at the end of the tone it gets more and more clean. And even in the clean phase there is always a bit of grit left over.

I personally have found a way how to deal with these "two knobs", I trust my ears and forget all those words. And I would recomend others to do the same.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=x56O4G8VsiA

Quote from fretboardminer

I personally have found a way how to deal with these "two knobs", I trust my ears and forget all those words. And I would recommend others to do the same.

Exactly.

Quote from fretboardminer

No. He is just repeating the same one explanation over and over again. That doesn't help. And making jokes about those who are still unclear about "these two knobs" won't help either.

I believe I have answered every specific question about this. And yes, let me joke about the fact, that some believe that it is much more complicated and that there might be some sound colouring behind it. I have stated multiple times that those two knobs are all about level and gain and no additional colouring.
I could give a technical explaination about how the knobs work internally, but this would get quite complicated and would not enlighten the purpose of these parameters.

Quote from fretboardminer

Unless with high-gain sounds the word "clean sounds" and "distorted sounds" just don't work. On a well balanced crunch sound there is always both: clean and distorted. In the attac phase most of the sound is distorted and at the end of the tone it gets more and more clean. And even in the clean phase there is always a bit of grit left over.

Sure there is both on a crunch sound. This is why both Clean Sense and Distortion Sense have some impact on the level and gain of crunch sounds. But I guess that you have noticed this already. It takes 10 seconds to hear what the effect is.
So if the terms for the parameters don't work for you, do you have a better naming?

Quote from ETS

For me personally i get a different sound on distorted tones by turning the distorted sense knob rather the gain knob, both adds more gain obviously,
but turning up the gain knob makes the sound also a bit fatter and adds a little more body to it, whilst turning up just the dist sense knob adds more gain to it
without this little ''colorization'' that i belive happends when using only the gain knob, but this is a very good thing for me because i rarely use overdrive/dist pedals in the kpa!
I could be wrong, but rarely does, and thats makes me very insecure

I can assure you that both Gain and Distortion Sense do exactly the same. But (obviously) Gain does even more distortion, when turned by a certain angle than Distortion Sense. Distortion Sense has a span of 24 dB (+- 12 dB) while Gain covers 80 dB.
But there is no sound colouration exept the drive into the amp distortion, that of course colours the sound.

You can try it out by yourself:
Unlock the input section.
Chose a gainy sound with Distortion Sense at zero and no Stomps active.
Set Distortion Sense to +5.0 and reduce Gain. Here is the exact value: Reduce (substract) Gain by 1.5.
Save this sound and compare it with the original sound. They will sound exactly the same.

Quote from ckemper

So if the terms for the parameters don't work for you, do you have a better naming?

AISB for me it is quite ok now. But you would be surprised what different kind of misinterpretations I had at the very beginning! It is not so much the UI Names of the parameters but more your explanation when you say "distorted sounds" and "clean sounds". Does it mean Rigs that are somehow categorized as "clean" and "distorted"? Does it even mean profiles? I even once thought that this question in the profiling dialog would forever tag the profile as "clean" or "distorted". Maybe I am still wrong about it today but now I see it as something like two independent level controls for two different signal chains. With the Distortion Sense being more like a level fine-tuning for the distortion signal chain, as this control is centered on zero.

For the UI, once understood how it works, it is ok with these names as they are now. It explains quite well why bringing up the Clean Sense does not increase the amount of distortion as usual with an input gain control.

I honestly feel like I know what these do now. Do I have this right?

Clean Sense - The point of this is to set input gain for your guitar essentially. It should be set just below the red light clipping to have a strong signal for any guitar. It will be lower for humbuckers and higher for Singles?

Distortion Sense - It's a much more subtle effect that adds a slight amount of gain for dirty settings.

If I have this right it's only because of the Maz 8 patches I have. I had noticed on my strat that the Clean ++ was really pretty much a clean amp setting but it was much different on my Parker or LP. After I made the adjustment on my Clean sense (and saved a "strat" input setting) I went to this and now the Rig has some hair on it like it's supposed to.

Am I getting it now?

Quote from brianr0131

Am I getting it now?

That's the way I understand it. Though I would say that the Distortion Sense is a "fine tune" that let's you adjust either direction for your own tastes.

Quote from ckemper

So if the terms for the parameters don't work for you, do you have a better naming?

Maybe this is indeed a point where UI terms that are technically less correct would be much better and intuitively understandable for guitar players:

Clean Sense => Input Level
Distortion Sense => Master Gain

[Blocked Image: http://www.audiosemantics.de/FORUMS/stop-making-sense.jpg]

A classical input level and a classical master gain is pretty much the same.
This is why I gave these parameters unusual names.

Yes, it is not logical. But somehow "Input" is always up front, the very first, and only technical adaptation to the output of the guitar. And when guitar players read "Master" they tend to think of the end of the signal chain.

But I understand your approach: it is a new and unique feature so you wanted new names for it. If you keep those terms, you should explain them without using the words "clean sounds" and "distorted sounds" because many people think of a rig as a stored "sound".

Maybe this?:
Clean Sense is an input level control that does not affect the amount of distortion in the amp. It is used to adapt the input of the KPA to the pickups of different guitars for a strong, clean signal.
Distortion Sense is global gain control that does not change the input level. It sounds the same as the Gain control in the rig but it can globally trim up or down all the gain settings of all rigs at once.

Quote from fretboardminer

Clean Sense is an input level control that does not affect the amount of distortion in the amp. It is used to adapt the input of the KPA to the pickups of different guitars for a strong, clean signal.
Distortion Sense is global gain control that does not change the input level. It sounds the same as the Gain control in the rig but it can globally trim up or down all the gain settings of all rigs at once.

As well as a definition of what they do there should also be a definition of why they are needed at all. e.g. 'Clean sense and distortion sense are not controls found on a real amplifier but are required by the KPA because...........' .

This definition of purpose would hopefully explain what we are trying to achieve with these two controls, and how we might know when we had achieved it. It would also give some feeling for whether it would be possible for the KPA to have the option to automatically set these controls at some point in the future and take the whole issue away.

Piggybacking her in hopes of getting an answer related to the "clean Sense" knob....

If you use super high output pickups (like Joe Barden pickups) - it seems even on "0", it CLIPS the input light into the light red stages.

What can be done to remove the clipping on this input light?

I have tried turning down the Master volume and the Volume on main bottom right knob....as well as the CABINET volume. Do all 3 effect the input/input light?

Any other suggestions?

Quote from JEL

Piggybacking her in hopes of getting an answer related to the "clean Sense" knob....

If you use super high output pickups (like Joe Barden pickups) - it seems even on "0", it CLIPS the input light into the light red stages.

What can be done to remove the clipping on this input light?

I have tried turning down the Master volume and the Volume on main bottom right knob....as well as the CABINET volume. Do all 3 effect the input/input light?

Any other suggestions?

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I don't know, maybe turn down the volume on the guitar a bit?

Quote from djdyer

As well as a definition of what they do there should also be a definition of why they are needed at all. e.g. 'Clean sense and distortion sense are not controls found on a real amplifier but are required by the KPA because...

This has been said many times. It is a clever thing to enable us to set the input level without affecting the gains in all the rigs. And (unless you play only one amp, like me) it's very helpful to have a master trim for general corrections of the gains when you change guitars.

Quote from djdyer

This definition of purpose would hopefully explain what we are trying to achieve with these two controls, and how we might know when we had achieved it. It would also give some feeling for whether it would be possible for the KPA to have the option to automatically set these controls at some point in the future and take the whole issue away.

Only your ears can tell you when you have found your sound. How should the amp know by itsself how you like to set the global gain? And setting the input level is not really rocket science. I don't know any amp that does this automatically. And I wouldn't want the amp to do it automatically.

Quote from JEL

Piggybacking her in hopes of getting an answer related to the "clean Sense" knob....

If you use super high output pickups (like Joe Barden pickups) - it seems even on "0", it CLIPS the input light into the light red stages.

What can be done to remove the clipping on this input light?

I have tried turning down the Master volume and the Volume on main bottom right knob....as well as the CABINET volume. Do all 3 effect the input/input light?

Any other suggestions?

Display More

Do you hear any clipping already? Or is it just the red light on?
Did you try increasing the gap between pickups and strings by lowering the pickups?

Some of you folks need to worry less about semantics and spend 5 minutes messing with the settings. Its more basic than many of you are making it. For your typical humbucker guitar, set clean sense at 5 and distortion sense at zero. For single coils, bump up the distortion sense a bit. If you need a usage definition, here goes:

When you increase gain, you will typically increase volume. This is due to a gain stage boosting volume to distort a following stage. Clean sense exists to help balance the volume between the clean and dirty settings within a profile. This will not balance volumes between 2 different profiles, one clean and one dirty. That has to be done by leveling the volume between profiles.

Distortion sense is essentially an input gain control. For lower output pickups you can raise it to get more gain or lower it for guitars with hotter pickups. This clearly follows some type of exponential curve in order to be more effective as gain is engaged.

You can save multiple input configurations for different guitars so when you swap from an LP to Strat you don't have to spend time working it out again. This is a global setting I feel really meant to set and forget not to constantly twiddle from profile to profile as such...ONCE YOU HAVE CLEAN AND DISTORTION SENSE SET FOR A GUITAR...FORGET ABOUT IT AND PLAY!

Can you store a input setting for every guitar you have so you only have to do it once for all your guitars/pickups and then just recall the input when you use that guitar with a certain profile?

Yes, you can. Just press Store while you're on the input menu and give it a name

Everyday the KPA amazes me more! Thank you for this very helpful tip!!!

Quote from dvp

Can you store a input setting for every guitar you have so you only have to do it once for all your guitars/pickups and then just recall the input when you use that guitar with a certain profile?

But remember to lock the Input section: press and hold the Lock button and then all the buttons that are already locked light up. If the Input does not light up then press it (while still holding the Lock button) and then it is locked.

If you don't lock it, the input will be changed with every new rig that you open.

Quote from djdyer

As well as a definition of what they do there should also be a definition of why they are needed at all. e.g. 'Clean sense and distortion sense are not controls found on a real amplifier but are required by the KPA because...........' .

This definition of purpose would hopefully explain what we are trying to achieve with these two controls, and how we might know when we had achieved it. It would also give some feeling for whether it would be possible for the KPA to have the option to automatically set these controls at some point in the future and take the whole issue away.

I don't know what to say anymore Is anybody reading the manual?

There is a long explaination in the printed manual, on page 18 and 19. Please post, if you still have questions.

Other digital amps with presets also suffer from the same effect, that the volume of clean and distorted sounds suffer from volume differences, depending in the guitar you use. But they have not a global solution.