How do Behringer make the FCB for $150.00?

I couldnt agree more. I dont own one any more but I have had 2 in the past. Its a well thought out midi controller for sure. The only tiny quirk I had with it is how big it is. But man, 2 expression pedals (that work great) stomp box mode, what else could you ask for at that price???? Im not a huge Behringer fan, but they got this one right!

Quote from Guitartone

Well, we know how, make it in China.
But, even so, it's incredible that they can make such a 'great' midi controller for that price.

The parts cost is low. And once they've sold enough units, they have paid for the R&D. All that's left is labor costs. And as you said, they've kept those down by building it in China.

To be honest, labor really isn't even a factor. The body is cast, the board is likely wave soldered, and all connectors are on jacks and harnesses. I bet the final assembly on these only takes a few minutes.

Quote from Will_Chen

To be honest, labor really isn't even a factor. The body is cast, the board is likely wave soldered, and all connectors are on jacks and harnesses. I bet the final assembly on these only takes a few minutes.

You just described a lot of labor - casting, soldering, and wiring. It might not seem like much taken individually, but they add up faster than you might realize.

Labor costs are ALWAYS a significant factor in total manufacturing costs.

Quote from Desiato

You just described a lot of labor - casting, soldering, and wiring. It might not seem like much taken individually, but they add up faster than you might realize.

Labor costs are ALWAYS a significant factor in total manufacturing costs.

I'm suggesting they probably have a highly automated and efficient manufacturing process. Casting and wave soldering is automated these days. And with the wiring on a harness with connectors, it's pop and go. I'm sure I'm minimizing a bit, but there's not a whole lot inside the FCB1010. It's really not a complex piece of gear compared to a mixer with a ton of moving parts.

Here's a look at some of the automation at the Behringer Factory, Looks like most the labor involved with the printed boards is QA.

Quote from Guitartone

Well, we know how, make it in China.
But, even so, it's incredible that they can make such a 'great' midi controller for that price

Uli Behringer was pissed off that 1000 dollar equipment was made with 100 dollars in parts and decided to create his own company so that more people could afford good equipment at more affordable prices. Seems he is still true to his values as he has become quite successful and still not given into corporate greed that consumes many people.

It is actually a pretty good story if you have a few minutes to read.

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Ou…/The-BEHRINGER-Story.aspx

Made in China definitely helps cut down production costs, but unlike some other companies, Behringer passes those savings to consumers.

Quote from Will_Chen

To be honest, labor really isn't even a factor. The body is cast, the board is likely wave soldered, and all connectors are on jacks and harnesses. I bet the final assembly on these only takes a few minutes.

The body is NOT cast. It is fabricated from sheet metal, steel to be exact. It all the openings for jacks, etc. were done on the part before the part itself was done, all while the sheet was flat, either with a CNC Punch Press or a CNC Laser Cutter. Then the flat parts are bent into the final shape on a Folding Press. Finally the nice finish is applied to it.

Casting a part as thin and large as this is extremely difficult to do (tough to get the molten steel to flow through the small cavities of the mold while remaining molten) if it is at all possible, and if so, it would be extremely expensive.

All the plastic parts are injection molded. The molds are expensive to make and they do wear out in the molding process, so that is a cost they will encounter after a certain number of parts are made.

But you are right about the final assembly being pretty quick.

And it IS amazing they can make these and retail them for $150. That means THEIR cost is likely somewhere south of $75!

The real question is: Why do other manufacturers dare to charge 799$ for their midi floor boards? They must be making ungodly profits on those.

Quote from Sportsfreund

The real question is: Why do other manufacturers dare to charge 799$ for their midi floor boards? They must be making ungodly profits on those.

The answer to your question might be the number of units sold. It's pretty much the same with the Profiler. If Kemper would flood the market with devices and make them immediately available in the most remote places and smallest shops on earth, they could drop the price tag significantly. But their business model is different to Behringer, Boss, Zoom, etc.

If you're a one-man show, developing a new device on your own and then keep building them alone, one by one ... then you simply can't sell them for 150$ each and still earn a good but standard living. The much higher price tag doesn't make these folks carribean island owners.

Cheers,
Martin

That may be true for some builders, but I know of at least one manufacturer of those high-priced units, who happens to be a direct competitor to Kemper, which once took more than a week (!) off to go on vacation. So some profit must be made on those floor boards. FWIW I never heard of Uli Behringer taking a week off...

Quote from Sportsfreund

... which once took more than a week (!) off to go on vacation ...

Wow, more than 1 week vacation? That's totally unacceptable!
Hardware inventors and manufacturers shouldn't be allowed to go on vacation ever! There should be a law that restricts them to 1 Pizza Margerita per 16 hours of work and a single room basement flat with 10m² maximum.

'nuff said

Aw, come on, man. That's a bit unfair to other manufacturers. I think it's great Behringer is able to bring out units at the price point they do. But just because someone took a vacation or made more than minimum wage in a year is no reason to knock their business model. You want to make money and be successful, why shouldn't they?

This is a similar argument to what people say about pirating music and software. "They should be happy to get their sounds out" and "They're already rich" or "The record company is making all the profit". It's a Communist way of thinking to usurp people's hard work for "the common good" and boy, I can't stand Communists. That's a long story for another time though.

Quote from nightlight

Aw, come on, man. That's a bit unfair to other manufacturers. I think it's great Behringer is able to bring out units at the price point they do. But just because someone took a vacation or made more than minimum wage in a year is no reason to knock their business model. You want to make money and be successful, why shouldn't they?

This is a similar argument to what people say about pirating music and software. "They should be happy to get their sounds out" and "They're already rich" or "The record company is making all the profit". It's a Communist way of thinking to usurp people's hard work for "the common good" and boy, I can't stand Communists. That's a long story for another time though.

I don't think it's communist thinking - it's just self-serving. There's no common good involved, just that person's selfish desires.

I would say Behringer is the exception and not the norm. People are in business to make money. Whether they are sick of their old job or want to be their own boss or just want to be successful, they want money and a good life with opportunities to vacation and see the world like anyone else would want. There's frugal millionaires who dress like hobos and there's guys like Bill Gates who gives away billions to different sectors to make the world a better place, it is just too hard to label someone or some company based on pricing or success.

The FCB1010 has probably been out for 15+ years, so any R&D costs are long gone and they can sell the board for what it costs in parts plus labour plus a bit for shipping a and profit. The Kemper is just a metal box with circuit boards, knobs, jacks, buttons and a screen we could probably build our own for <400 bucks. But good luck getting it to do anything useful, the rest of the KPA costs are going to R&D and wages and a ton of support in the form of firmwares, features, bug fixes, and running this community plus a bunch of other hidden costs associated with a business. CK probably had years worth of wages owed to himself for making the KPA that does not get payed back till it hits the market for sale.

I'd say it all boils down to an ideal mixture of "you get what you pay for" and "getting your best bang for your buck". But sometimes you run into a gem, and the FCB seems to be one of them.

Quote from Desiato

There's no common good involved, just that person's selfish desires.

Hence, the reference to Communism. It was applicable more to downloading music and software piracy, because the excuses that you often hear are all about "we the people", even though it is plain selfish. People can't do that with manufactured goods like fridges or TVs right now, but if you extended the principle to the manufacturing sphere, it would be along the lines of "the owner of the company takes a one week vacation every year, he must reduce his prices to what we the people deem acceptable"

Quote from nightlight

Hence, the reference to Communism. It was applicable more to downloading music and software piracy, because the excuses that you often hear are all about "we the people", even though it is plain selfish. People can't do that with manufactured goods like fridges or TVs right now, but if you extended the principle to the manufacturing sphere, it would be along the lines of "the owner of the company takes a one week vacation every year, he must reduce his prices to what we the people deem acceptable"

LOL I hear ya. It's a shortsighted, destructive philosophy.

Gene Simmons summed it up nicely in this interview, where he revealed that it was the FANS that killed the record industry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…e=player_detailpage#t=100

It's all interesting stuff reading this thread right?

Well it is, if you are not one of the guys put out of a job because of the absolute flooding of the western world by very low cost products.

In the case of Behringer it IS low cost no doubt... but settle down, some Chinese stuff some 'manufacturers' (let's call them that) charge the earth for.

Think Apple, the wealthiest company in the world right?

They make them very cheap believe it or not and sell them for what most would regard as a very high price. Higher quality granted, but still Chinese and still putting many guys out of a job.

Like it or not that's the way it is. So next time you want to buy the cheap (or not so cheap) Chinese manufactured product think about the guys that end up without a job.

And the Chinese frankly could not give a damn.

The western world is far more mature, and to stay manufacturing on home soil costs one hell of a lot more money - ask Kemper themselves I'm sure they could make things cheaper in China.

Labour costs are far higher in the western hemisphere. But also sourcing parts costs far more money. I remember being in a Singapore manufacturing plant some years ago (I owned some of it) and purchasing were harassing a supplier for a discount of 1 cent for a capacitor... that difference made thousands of dollars difference to the bottom line. I never forgot that lesson.

Just an opinion of course. As it happens I like some Chinese made products and have even sold them, but for sure, the consequences are further reaching than you think.

Stay cool... and YES I do like Chinese Takeaways

Quote from nightlight

Edit, double post: I had a story/rant and the editor messed it all up.