Best integrated workflow in studio?

    So I've used my Kemper probably on 300-400 sessions already. Tones blast out of radio/computers/iphones. It's fantastic. I've convinced probably 40-50 bands that they NEED one ;) But I have a conundrum. It's complicated so bear with me. And HELP if you can.


    In my studio, it's REALLY hard to sample amps because of wiring complexities. It's a 4 room setup. Control, Middle Room, Far Room, Amp Room. Bands typically load amps into the amp room and they stand either in the Control Room or the Far Room. Sometimes the heads end up in the control room, with speaker cable runs to the amp room.


    Typically, a guitarist sits in control room with me. We plug him straight into a Great River preamp. That goes straight into Pro Tools. Many times, we send a properly adjusted signal DURING TRACKING from Pro Tools to one of the amps in the amp room. Why? I want the cleanest DI signal available for reamping. Sometimes I will use a direct box, with the 1/4" split going straight to the head, and the XLR signal going to the Great River.


    Using a real world example, a guy came in to track. We had his head in the control room. Head fed the cab 4 rooms away via 100' gigantic speaker cable. He plugged into a DI box, which sent XLR to Great River to Pro Tools, and the DI Box 1/4" tap fed the head. In this case, his tone was pretty pure. The cab was miked up with a 57 and tube mic, and those mics ran into some API 3124 preamps into Pro Tools. The sound was HUGE and we loved it. It took a while to dial it in. But we loved it. At the end of the night, the goal was to capture THAT sound with the Kemper. Whilst patching things together the way I thought it should be (basically had to set up a Pro Tools IO loop where the software had to get involved sending and returning signals). Needless to say, the profiles didn't work well.


    I have had success if we just load the amp into a main room. Drag the Kemper into the room. Unhook a rack of preamps and hook EVERYTHING up in that room. But then I need to monitor thru a headphone amp in that room. Not ideal for making profile ab comparisons. Plus it's a drag to unwire all that stuff. With this method, we never get to hear the amp in context. And I cannot mix multiple mics into one feed into the Kemper. In my above example, we would've sampled the amps in the amp room, without benefit of being in the control room to hear how it blended with mix/ which speakers to use etc.


    Am I trying to do something it's not meant to do? Lots of bigger studios than mine use this thing. And I'm sure sampling is the last thing on their mind when loading in 8 amps and picking which ones work with mix. Once things are dialed in, miked up and sent to recorders, THEN you'd sample that amazing tone you developed right? Or am I thinking of things wrong? I see videos where the bands are standing in the control room A/Bing the profile. I cannot for the life of me figure out the workflow to get this done, without routing a million things thru pro tools. I will admit, I don't have a gigantic multi bus analog console. I've no need for it since all my rooms are hard wired into 32 boutique-ish preamps and mixing is done thru Pro Tools mixer.


    What easy step am I missing? ?( I want to be able to sample client amps so we don't have to reinvent the wheel every album or session.

    Hi, ive read this and will respond later, as im about to go into a session..


    But to say things quick, you need to think simpler.


    Direct to amp, then mics back to kemper. Via a submixer if using more than one. Sounds like your trying to profile your protools rig and converters rather than the amps. Are you using complex patch bays for this task?


    Protools will need to take the analog signal summed to mono, from protools to kemper.. But you will need an anolog path,


    I.e kemper main outs on input 3/4
    Kempers direct out to amp
    Return from mic pres on say 5/6
    Sum those to output say 7
    Send 7 to kemper return.
    Setup the correct i/o in protools. And use input monitering


    Are you not using a console that has the ability to feed?


    Anyway.. Ill give a better responce late, sorry if this does not make sence here.. Typed in a rush.

    agreed, this seems to be the issue:
    (basically had to set up a Pro Tools IO loop where the software had to get involved sending and returning signals). Needless to say, the profiles didn't work well.


    If you don't have a board, maybe consider getting a small mixer just for this application? Then you can leave it all as is, just take the outs from your preamps and send them into the mixer to create a mono return back to the kemper. That sounds easier than unplugging and moving a bunch of gear at every session.


    Either that or problem solve that PT i/o headache

    I'm sure it complicates matters using Pro Tools as my main mixer. In my universe, it was simple to wire the rooms such that in each room there is a patch bay. Those patch bays accept mic feeds. Then they tie directly into the preamps in the control room. The preamp outs go into the pro tools 192 interfaces. There's no easy way to analog tap off the preamp outs. I could make a new patch bay matrix … :(


    Doing it thru Pro Tools… I've set it up to where the signal routing is correct. It's just that the profiles don't turn out quite right. Small wonder considering all the processing involved.


    I'm also trying to maintain the cleanest path for my mic signals into the PT interface… So I was hesitant to run the preamp outs thru a patch bay or tapping matrix.


    Am I correct in saying that the biggest part of the puzzle is getting my preamp outs run into the profiler? Are all the inputs on the Profiler balanced (except the front gtr input)? My patch bays are all balanced. Just making sure I am not trying to plug a TRS connector into a jack looking for a TS signal.

    Amateur here.


    1. There are differences between the 2 profiling sessions. So first thing is: Identify the differences. Was DI box used in one, not the other? Was 100' cable used in one, not the other, etc.
    2. Recreate AS MUCH of these parameters in the Good Profiling session main room as you can. Profile there and listen. Still poor? Eliminate the DI box. Redo. Poor? Eliminate the Cable. Poor, eliminate the Pro Tools I/O Loop.


    That is the only way to see where the bottle neck is that is ruining the profiling process outcome.


    I'm assuming from what I hear that the profiling process frequency probing and dynamic probing is a range far wider than a typical guitar. So my mind would tend to go to what in the signal chain that is different might LIMIT that profiling probing? Is the 100' cable, which may be rolling off high frequencies, the culprit? It may be that parameters found by probing such frequencies are used in the KPA Model and are very necessary for "realism" or "authenticity" in the end. That those parameters a guitar may not reach often or at all are still part of the flavor of a cabinet that when missing make for a poor profile.


    If that makes sense. My 2 cents. But the Scientist in me says: Recreate Poor Process Parameters into Good Process, then Eliminate one-by-one to find the culprit. I'd suggest you just do the profiles testing all in one, then later check the profiles. You don't want to go back and forth Profile->Test->Profile since the setup is a bitch between each.


    If NONE of that makes sense, tell me I'm an amateur, ha ha!

    Hi, brithedark


    Here's my vision of a setup, I'm not sure if you tried this way, please tell me if you did.


    I would plug Kemper direct out / send output into DI box instead of guitar, which should be plugged into Kemper front input.
    Your sound card definitely should have hardware monitoring abilities. So I would redirect sound interface inputs, which get signals from preamps, to a particular sound card output. This output I would connect to Kemper Return input.
    I reckon this way software is not involved, only your sound interface hardware.


    It might be a problem if all your sound interface outputs are used for monitoring. Then it is an option to extend it or replace with a one with more outputs.


    Hope it's helpful by any chance ;)