Profiles on rig exchange segregation - rigs and profiles

    Thought I should post a separate thread about this.


    I think it would make sense to have further segregation in the rig exchange of "raw" profiles and "tweaked" profiles, or as per the naming convention, "rigs" and "profiles".


    Some users are more eager to have profiles that are exactly as they were after the amp was profiled. This can in some ways also shed light on profiles which are par excellence in the way they were profiled and those that were subject to tweaks to sound good.


    The "rigs", on the other hand, would lend themselves to users that are eager to have profiles that are stage or studio ready. This would be especially important for users that find they lack the skills to tweak like some users.


    Hoping there will be a favourable response to this. ^^

    I've been thinking about this as well some time ago.
    Here's my personal conclusion:
    If you get a profile from a 3rd party (or even a self-made profile) it will always be "tweaked". There's no 100% raw profiles. That's because you make a decision on microphone(s), mic position, amp settings to find what is called a "sweet spot" for your musical taste and the guitar used. So that's already an important form of tweaking before a profile is made, isn't it?
    Does it really matter if you (or someone else) slightly adjusted a few knobs in the STACK section after the setup has been profiled? Does it make a profile better (more authentic, more valuable) if this isn't done? To be honest ... I don't think so. If I like the sound, fine. If I don't like it at all, my own attempts to "reverse tweak" these few knobs likely won't result in a great profile (for me) either.


    All the other components of a rig, like stomps and effects don't bother me at all. It's very easy to just disable them and listen to the isolated STACK section.

    disable all stomps and effects (and whatever else comes to mind) and lock those. start previewing and enjoy the "raw" beauty of the untouched ;)
    gs

    Get in touch with Profiler online support team here

    Quote from G String

    disable all stomps and effects (and whatever else comes to mind) and lock those. start previewing and enjoy the "raw" beauty of the untouched ;)
    gs


    I think, the main point of nightlight wasn't the stomps and effects but the AMP, EQ, CAB parameters being altered after the profile had been made. And these can't get reversed as easy as you describe. :)

    Quote from G String

    disable all stomps and effects (and whatever else comes to mind) and lock those. start previewing and enjoy the "raw" beauty of the untouched ;)
    gs


    This is a good idea, but we can't always lock things like EQ tweaks, or changes to the definition, clarity and other parameters.

    Quote from lightbox


    I've been thinking about this as well some time ago.
    Here's my personal conclusion:
    If you get a profile from a 3rd party (or even a self-made profile) it will always be "tweaked". There's no 100% raw profiles. That's because you make a decision on microphone(s), mic position, amp settings to find what is called a "sweet spot" for your musical taste and the guitar used. So that's already an important form of tweaking before a profile is made, isn't it?
    Does it really matter if you (or someone else) slightly adjusted a few knobs in the STACK section after the setup has been profiled? Does it make a profile better (more authentic, more valuable) if this isn't done? To be honest ... I don't think so. If I like the sound, fine. If I don't like it at all, my own attempts to "reverse tweak" these few knobs likely won't result in a great profile (for me) either.


    All the other components of a rig, like stomps and effects don't bother me at all. It's very easy to just disable them and listen to the isolated STACK section.



    That's why my suggestion is primarily aimed at the rig exchange. I would like to be able to browse through raw profiles just by clicking or pressing up and down using my librarian, rather than picking up a profile, undoing all changes and then listening, which would be time consuming.


    More often than not, I think the secret to a great profile is when the raw profile is excellent, without any tweaks. This gives so much more scope for tweaking than something that has already been adjusted, which could throw you off the trail in the first place.

    Quote from lightbox


    I think, the main point of nightlight wasn't the stomps and effects but the AMP, EQ, CAB parameters being altered after the profile had been made. And these can't get reversed as easy as you describe. :)


    Exactly. 100%. This is even more difficult to do when parameters such as definition might be set at 10 immediately when a profile is created, which would be difficult to predict when doing "reverse engineering". ^^

    Quote from lightbox

    I think, the main point of nightlight wasn't the stomps and effects but the AMP, EQ, CAB parameters being altered after the profile had been made. And these can't get reversed as easy as you describe.


    you're right, i see what he means now.
    gs

    Get in touch with Profiler online support team here

    Quote from nightlight

    ... More often than not, I think the secret to a great profile is when the raw profile is excellent, without any tweaks. ...


    I do understand you. I just tried to discuss the topic "raw profile". :)
    As I said before I've been thinking about this topic as well. And in the end I re-adjusted (tweaked) my conception of "raw" in the realm of the Profiler.
    In my opinion there's no perfectly "raw" profiles in the basic meaning of the word. Many decisions, adjustments, tweaks have been made when profiling an amp. Actually, we don't even profile an amp, we profile signal chains with lots af variables in between. Someone has made the decision to profile in a certain way, to achieve a certain sound and feel. And I simply learned to accept this and not to care much about the question: Have ALL the tweaks and adjustments been made before the actual profile has been taken ... or have some tweaks been applied afterwards?


    I'm sure once you accept that "perfectly raw" is nothing but wishful thinking you can deal with it. You always get what the creator liked, had in mind, managed to do. You'll never get a perfectly "un-tweaked" profile from anyone ... not even yourself. :)


    Hope you understand what I'm trying to say.


    Cheers
    Martin

    I agree with Martin. There seems to be no difference between a +1.8 dB @ 3,000 Hz coming from a mic displacement or a knob tweaking.


    This would make much more sense with "faithful profiling" as Jay Mitchell has explained, where the mic gives the least possible contribution tot he sound. It would require standardized profiling procedures in order to return consistent results tho. Pretty sure it will never happen :)


    Cheers, Martin! I don't think there's any merits in debating the effects of microphones on profiles, or even other extraneous gear such as stompboxes, etc. These are all inputs in the profiling process and if described honestly by the profiler, I'll at least have a ballpark idea of what went into making a profile. If we look into some of the unique profiles showcased by some of our users that were sourced from producers like Andy Sneap, it's clear that even additional EQing, compression and other processing is fair game in creating a profile.


    But when we talk about a profile of an amp without any of that additional gear, I've found there are often users that tweak the bass response, cab and amp parameters, add compression or an EQ, etc, in order to arrive at a sound similar to that of the actual amp. In the case, additional tweaks by the user will deviate more from the original sound of the amp than a profile where no such tweaks were made. These should be classified as rigs and not profiles on the rig exchange, since they are more of a polished work than the original sound that was captured.


    I digressed when I said I "prefer" trying out profiles (raw) to rigs (polished) on the exchange. My personal preferences notwithstanding (since I am an end user, I have no control over how the amp was set or profiled), it would definitely be better if we could pick out profiles on the exchange that were not tweaked from the ones that were tweaked.


    If one looks into many of the factory profiles that came with the Kemper, these were a great base for further tweaking to make a studio or stage ready sound. With a rig, I believe that the scope for further refinement is more limited, since now I am entirely subject to the preferences of the user that uploaded the rig on the exchange, since he has already determined this is the best way for the profile to sound.


    Consequently, my input or "preference" is even more meaningless than had I a raw sound or base from which I started to tweak.


    I originally bought the profile without looking at its FX, but for the intent that I would have a slew of "raw" (sorry to use that word) amplifiers to use. I think rigs are definitely a great idea for those of us that want finished sounds, but I like the idea of amplifiers being profiled from multiple dimensions (as done by good commercial users) and then being able to doctor these as I wish.

    I also think that there are a number of sub-par profiles on the rig exchange. Some of these would sound nothing like the actual amp without tweaking.


    In such a situation, it would be important for the profiler to be the first to realise that the profiling process has not worked as intended and make a fresh start. I feel that the best "base" ensures even better rigs once tweaking is done.


    Segregation of the rig exchange into "rigs" and "profiles" could also ensure that the scoring system is more effective. Which profiles are an excellent base to tweak from? Which rigs are the best to plug-and-play on stage or in the studio? ^^

    Ok, let's face reality for a second. :)
    I don't think we can enforce the entire community to trustfully disclose if they tweaked the few accessible parameters after the profile has been taken. Either we trust them ... or we don't. We can't do much about this at the moment. If there's a common sense that the "raw" is important, then it's up to Kemper to provide a solution. Possible solutions:


    1. Add a "read-only" flag (simple boolean field) that shows if the automatically adjusted parameters have been tweaked manually after the profiling process.
    This allows us to see if there have been modifications ... but not what these modifications were. The flag is set by the Profiler when one or many of these parameters have been manually changed and saved.


    2. The Profiler always stores the original profile/rig including the original parameters and as soon as manual modifications are made, these parameters would be stored as well (in separate fields with higher priority). This would allow to provide a "restore to default" button. The "default" would exist forever since it's not editable (unless someone starts to mess around with a hex editor). This would be the most flexible way to do it, but also the most demanding for Kemper. I don't think it's very likely to happen.


    Either one of the above will only work for new profiles/rigs. The existing ones will not have this info.


    On a personal note:
    I don't think I ever need any of this because I simply try a rig and if I don't like it at all the way it is, then I don't think it's worth to tweak the hell out of it. I just move on and try another rig. If a rig gets me close to where I want to go, then I don't mind to tweak it to my taste. This will happen anyways, no matter if I have access to "raw" information or not.


    Or in other (more drastical) words, if someone made bad tweaks I just assume he made a bad profile as well. :D Ok, this is a bit prejudiced but life is to short to go into every possible detail, hehe.


    Cheers
    Martin

    For me, the Kemper is also a learning tool. I don't have access to a proper studio, the mics, the amps etc. So to me it would be nice to know what the original values are pre-tweaking (gain, definition, change of cab).
    I don't think people feel the need to alter the definition to hide anything (i don't know). Mostly, I would guess, it's just a hassle to fill out the tags. So if the profiler could capture the original value of G&D in the comments field, that would be great to me.
    Sorry for repeating what I've already written in the feature request thread :)

    Like Michael_dk said, the charm of the Kemper is its ability to assimilate amplifiers (swallow their souls). I don't see it as a device like other modellers, where I built the tone from the ground up.


    In that sense, the authenticity of profiles is critical for someone in my position. I don't have these amps or anyway to access them. Some users do, but if the profiling process isn't done to a high standard, the quality of the amp that I have in my arsenal becomes suspect.


    This is one reason I still have most of the original amplifiers provided by the Kemper Amplifiers company on my Kemper. Understood, some of them are rigs, but some of them are what I call "raw" amplfiers, which capture the characteristics of real world amps. And those are the ones I cherish most.