Profiling adds quite some hiss on high gain amps SAMPLE EDIT

    Ok I tested the rig Bruno mentioned. YES, there it is for sure a very very noisy profile.


    I posted a file here. First you will hear a high gain uber patch. noise gate at zero. i just noodled and kept the guitar open, pretty dang quiet, just as a point of reference. Then I loaded in the patch in question, and it is very noisy. What I noticed is that there is a pedal put in Stop A, one DS. The volume on that Pedal is turned all the way up. When I brought down the volume of the pedal back to 0, the noise went away. also, taking the pedal out and adding full on gain with the gain knob on the kemper produced just as much gain, but with no added noise...


    SOOOO, is the stomp pedals the culprit to adding noise? sounds like it. However this stomp pedal in this patch was used to the extreme, with the volume all the way up. I wonder if it would be best to keep pedal volumes reasonable to keep added noise in control.


    http://soundcloud.com/ericpalmermusic/noise-file

    Nice detective work.
    You will now be known as audioColumbo, aka audioholic. ;)


    So, I am a little confused here. I thought this thread (of which, I have read every post), was about "Profiling adds quite some hiss on high gain amps".
    But it was on this rig, not a profile, that you found a stomp engaged, at full volume?
    Now, I know you can profile an amp with a stomp box in front of it, but you can't raise, or lower the volume of the stomp after you save the profile, Yes?
    So, does this mean that a stomp was added to the rig after the profile was made, and then saved?
    This does not add up to profiling adding hiss.
    Any OD at full volume is going to add hiss, in the analog, or digital world.
    Are there profile samples with this hiss, or just this one rig?
    Like I said, I am confused here. ?(


    I am not sure what is the problem here either to be honest and if this at all solved the mystery or if this was just given. I am not sure if the op is getting hiss during his profiling experience or not. I was told to check out a certain profile that was supposed to have lots of hiss, and sure enough it did. however the hiss wasn't in the actual profile, but in the drive pedal that was activated in slot A, when you took that out, the profile was dead quiet, or at least as quiet as a gainy profile would be. Adding gain with the gain knob on the front panel did not introduce white noise hiss. only when putting the internal drive pedal back on. with the internal drive pedal volume at nominal 0, it was not nearly as noisy, but when turning up the volume on the drivie pedal to max, 5, it got significantly more hiss and white noise. So either the drive pedal inside kemper is succeptable to adding noise with high volume, or just the drive pedal itself is a bit noisy. I found it best to keep the volume at 0, and just turn up the cab to get volume, it however didn't sound exactly like cranking the drive pedal volume.


    overal I think gain structure has to be appreciated and taken into consideration when using and adding gainy stuff into any profile.


    I have some very high gain patches that sound pretty dang quiet, actually all of my profiles I use have normal noise floor, I don't even use the noise gate much if at all...


    I am not sure if this is all the topic is about, but I was asked to check out a profile and that is what I found........ hope that at least helps some what.

    There were two different things.. The original post is about profiling adding hiss..then I wanted to show that the word "noise" doesn't have the same meaning for everyone..That's why I posted this rig as an example cause to me it is unusable..though it didn't keep the the personn to post it and find it "normal"
    When I say that profiling adds hiss I'm just afraid that the difference before and after might be too minimal and that people will say I'm just being too picky ..Yes I'm..but many people complained that adding a pedal adds too much noise..BUT you forget that this noise is dependant of the amps noise too.The higher your amp noise is the higher your already noisy pedal will make it more unbearable..So at this point IF that added noise while profiling can't be removed (or if my unit is defective which is something I do not believe) and if the pedal noise can't be lowered ,do not expect to be able to use pedals with high gain rigs in a quiet environnment anytime soon


    I think my first sample was a bit misleading cause to start with it is not very noisy and I included the profiling part which makes it not clear to understand ..so here it is again with only original and profile ..and NOT during profiling..just the original and Profile as you would use them... You can clearly hear the raised hiss at around 00.17


    hiss

    Quote from audioholic

    either the drive pedal inside kemper is succeptable to adding noise with high volume, or just the drive pedal itself is a bit noisy. I found it best to keep the volume at 0, and just turn up the cab to get volume, it however didn't sound exactly like cranking the drive pedal volume.


    .


    ???? What are you talking here my friend ??? First if you know of a high gain amp where you can put a drive pedal in front and raise EITHER the gain or volume (once passed unity of course) and not raise the noise floor let know ..I have never seen one..Second you will never have a significant volume increase while turning up the volume of a gain pedal in front of a high gain amp...on a clean amp or medium break up one yes but past a certain amount of gain it will just add that ..gain and noise
    So the KPA drive may not be the culprit here .. one thing I'm going to do is compare a real vintage TS9 in front of the KPA to the pedal inside to see which one is the most silent.
    Also as you stated raising the gain and adding some with a pedal are too different things..there's a reason why people rely on pedals for years..there's a limit to where you can set gain because it makes the sound too rich of unwanted frequencies..pedals help focus and shape the bandwith so you can have higher gain and no mush ..there's a reason why the TS9 have been a long time favorite of many players..it cuts highs and lows


    To sum up my thoughts : for those of us who uses quite some gain in rigs the noise floor is bit too high..and superior to the original like my sample shows..unless someone could post a recording of an original and its profiled version with the same or less noise ;)

    Quote from audioholic

    SOOOO, is the stomp pedals the culprit to adding noise? sounds like it. However this stomp pedal in this patch was used to the extreme, with the volume all the way up. I wonder if it would be best to keep pedal volumes reasonable to keep added noise in control.

    In this case, it was the pedal. But I can give you at least 1 highgain rig with high noise (exactly as in the rig of Bruno) caused NOT by a pedal. Just from the KPA's Gain at max.
    The rig was a moderate distortion profile of a JCM800. When you increase the gain, the noise goes over the top...

    not sure that i'm on the right track here, but it was clearly stated that the kpa is NOT made for profiling modelers. if i'm not mistaken here, the axe II, where this profile comes from, is quite stellar in it's noise performance, with some hardware tricks involved. so i wouldn't mind if the kpa produces this tiny bit of more noise compared to a tool that has like the least amount of hiss in the world, but doesn't sound like a real amp either. compared to real amps, i don't expect the kpa to fail in a comparison... just speculation & experience here, but proove me wrong and i'm sure ck will chime in...

    Quite some gain?
    You had the stomp volume at +5 and you weren't aware of that.
    This adds another 24 dB to the gain and to any noise.


    Be aware that the KPA can produce much more overall gain than many analog rigs.
    Be carefull with the gain stages. You probably don't need that much gain.

    Quote from kilihahn

    not sure that i'm on the right track here, but it was clearly stated that the kpa is NOT made for profiling modelers. if i'm not mistaken here, the axe II, where this profile comes from, is quite stellar in it's noise performance, with some hardware tricks involved. so i wouldn't mind if the kpa produces this tiny bit of more noise compared to a tool that has like the least amount of hiss in the world, but doesn't sound like a real amp either. compared to real amps, i don't expect the kpa to fail in a comparison... just speculation & experience here, but proove me wrong and i'm sure ck will chime in...


    Sorry but there is no logic in this...Adding noise is adding noise..you take something quite low in noise floor you will get a little more...if it already has a lot then it will be even more ..
    Now may be the KPA direct out isn't optimized for anything else than a real tube amp and do not want to see something like a an AXE...but I'll also wait for someone to post a recording of a real amp and its profiled version so we can compare the noise level..so far nobody did ;) ..if it doesn't happen I will ask a friend to bring a good amp 100% tube and I'll do it myself

    Quote from ckemper

    Quite some gain?
    You had the stomp volume at +5 and you weren't aware of that.
    This adds another 24 dB to the gain and to any noise.


    Be aware that the KPA can produce much more overall gain than many analog rigs.
    Be carefull with the gain stages. You probably don't need that much gain.


    Christoph..Did you read what I wrote ? it is NOT one of my rig ..I didn't post this to show that there was too much noise in the unit..but to show that some people do use way too much gain and do not seem to be disturbed by the noise even when it's an unacceptable level ..This is a rig you can find on the exchange page ..not mine... so WHAT is too much noise for WHO ? That is the question :)


    EDIT : there was no quote so I dont know if that was actually directed to me or to Schneidas ?

    Quote from BRUNO

    Sorry but there is no logic in this...Adding noise is adding noise..you take something quite low in noise floor you will get a little more...if it already has a lot then it will be even more ..
    Now may be the KPA direct out isn't optimized for anything else than a real tube amp and do not want to see something like a an AXE...but I'll also wait for someone to post a recording of a real amp and its profiled version so we can compare the noise level..so far nobody did ;) ..if it doesn't happen I will ask a friend to bring a good amp 100% tube and I'll do it myself


    logic? maybe no, maybe yes. depends on if we're really talking about clearly "adding" noise or just a kpa-related minimal noise floor for a rig with a certain amount of distortion. which, in the axe case might be higher, in another case might be lower. still, i don't want to pretend to have a clue here.

    Quote from kilihahn

    logic? maybe no, maybe yes. depends on if we're really talking about clearly "adding" noise or just a kpa-related minimal noise floor for a rig with a certain amount of distortion. which, in the axe case might be higher, in another case might be lower. still, i don't want to pretend to have a clue here.


    That's why the only way to tell is to profile a 100% tube amp ..a good one with what I'd call "normal" level of noise ..I'll take care of it soon :)

    looking forward to your findings mate, in my approaches (without recorded examples though) the kemper always "won", but with the real world competition being rather noisy here...

    Quote from kilihahn

    looking forward to your findings mate, in my approaches (without recorded examples though) the kemper always "won", but with the real world competition being rather noisy here...


    That's actually the problem..people are used to too much noise in my experience..They only notice it when it gets very high..Now show them their noise and show them something "clean" and they won't accept their noisy rig anymore..I have seen that a lot of time :) ..Noise gate will never be the first solution..it's the last ;)