Welcome!
Yea, it took me some time to zero in on tone bliss .... but once there, it is seriously the best sounding, easiest to use rig out there for live gigging. I seriously can't even imagine lugging around my old faithful VHT UL and 4x12 cab (not to mention the 2x12 fat bottom cab).
Some of my most ardent tube purist friends are now converts too 
Through a PA, nothing touches it IMHO.
Wow. Nice addition to the lineup CK.
While it is possible that some sales of the traditional products will be lost, they will more than be made up by the sales of the "Stage" unit.
To those that are not understanding this, please consider this from a gigging musicians point of view for a minute.
To have a real gig rig with either a toaster or rack, you need the foot controller too. This puts you at around $2400.00. There is a WHOLE lot of sunlight between a $2400 Kemper rig and either a Helix or AX8 (both around $1600). I suspect that Kemper will sell the lower priced "Stage" model 2 to 1 over the current head + floorboard combination.... maybe as much as 4 to 1.
This is a brilliant use of engineering resources and IMO (and I do this kind of thing for a living), will have a tremendous ROI (way better than a Kemper 2 or dual amps). Keeping the same code base for release is also essential. Personally, I would have liked to see a bluetooth interface with an iPhone and Android app for tablet control of editing; however, I totally see the simplicity of keeping as many of the critical buttons and knobs as possible to minimize the code changes needed to support the product.
While it would be nice not to need to connect a cable to edit remotely (or place the unit on a desk to edit), the vast majority of users will not be doing editing live (I certainly don't do this with the current product and can't ever see doing it in a live situation).
Professionals, and weekend warriors that prefer a faster stage setup with fewer cables will still greatly prefer the rack or toaster (I fall into that group). I don't see a large percent of people who already own a Kemper buying the new "Stage" .... other than the most ardent supporters here of course :).
For those that can't quite swing the full $2400 for the "premium" solution, the "stage" $1700 solution gives them the same capabilities and same tone ..... and it is smaller and lighter. Really, this is a winning combination.
Anyway ..... that is my read on the product. Great strategy CK.
Any A/B should really be Kemper to Interface versus amp/cab/mic to interface otherwise there is some influence.
I think the proper comparison should be to run up and down the stairs with each amp 100 times. The one that makes you pass out first loses
I think that recording the 2 amps is interesting, but for me, the ability to create a very accurate reproduction with a high level of repeatability from the FOH is the big difference. I have had LOTS of variation from my tube amps from different rooms, mics getting bumped, gremlins, little angles, little demons, and God knows what else making my tube amp FOH sound vary wildly.
One should also note that it's hard to compare anything without the original source tone. Problem I have with most profilers is they don't provide the original signal path to compare alongside the profile. Too many profilers saying "100% accurate" but without a source for the consumer to compare.
We also must consider that every amp and signal path is a bit different. Even a slight mic position affects the results, let alone a different cab, speakers, the condition the speakers are in, mic, preamp, cables, tubes, tube condition, power conditioning, etc. The only way to test accuracy of something is to mic and profile your own setup on the spot and reamp the same exact DI.
And, of course, if you're comparing the feeling you get in the room, mic'd tones won't compare.
... and the more important question ..... does it really matter if the KPA can sound exactly like a specific setup of a specific amp?
I have had many shoot-outs with my tube amp lugging friends with various amps. I didn't profile their amps. I used a rig that I use for the same songs as they use their particular setup for. I have yet to have any owner of multiple tube amps leave the room thinking that they were not bested by my Kemper rig. It may happen some day, but it hasn't happened yet. Most importantly IMO is that these comparisons were done in the context of a full band using a full PA. When I play live, it is the sound out of the PA that is most important .... since this is what the audience hears. IMO the Kemper is unsurpassed in this regard. I would love to have someone compare their favorite Friedman tube amp rig mic'ed up to my Kemper rig through a good PA. I do really like my Friedman profiles btw..... although for most Marshall supported songs, I find that my MBritt profiles work better ... but not all, just most.
Still, I do acknowledge that there is an impact that you get from a good 4x12 cab with a good tube amp that is somewhat lacking from any single speaker and a Kemper. Using 2 speakers in stereo does seem to bring things back to a more even footing though. My thought is that most 4x12 cabs driven by a good tube amp are simply loud and move a butt ton of air. If you are used to that "feeling", you need some serious powered speakers around you for the Kemper to get the same feeling.
Note, this is not to be confused with actual tone. Impact is not tone IMO. While all guitar players (me too) love the feeling of a 4x12 stack being pushed by a good tube amp, generally speaking, there are precious few venues where you can play at that level and not chase the crowd away .... or at the very least make a complete and utter mess of the mix for the band.
For me, the EQ controls on kemper don't get used much. Yes, they are easily accesible in a hardware format, but tonally tend not to do what I'm after. Usually it's a studio EQ that I'll use. That's convenient in kemper for sure, relatively speaking to some other solutions; but depending on the task at hand, for me, EQ corrections in daw can also be more convenient in other cases, some times going full-on VST anyway.
Ahhh. I see. Yes, a multi-band, fully parametric eq is certainly superior in every possible way over a simple 4 band graphic eq (which is essentially what the Kemper front eq is) ..... except for one.
Guitar players have decades of experience using a simple 4 knob front eq on an amp. Most tube amp players would really be confused with a 6 to 10 band fully parametric eq interface. Sound re-enforcement professionals and recording pros would have no problem. This is the bread and butter of mixing IMO.
Again, IMO, the beauty of the KPA is that it is easy to use. Personally, I find it to be more of an advantage to a live player than someone that only records. As you point out, there are more and more powerful and convincing VST plug ins every year... and processing power on the PC just keeps getting better and better.
The other question I would wonder about is that most people that make VST's make more than just one kind of thing. Kemper is all about making a great guitar rig. They aren't trying to make a great eq, or a great vocal reverb impulse response engine, or a great multi-band compressor, etc, etc. To me, it just seems unlikely that a VST maker could get something to the same quality of the KPA.
.... of course, I could always be wrong 
If it's makes you feel better, we had a terrible May Grey and it looks like June Gloom has been a record breaker too.
San Diego sucks.
I spent some time in San Diego in the Navy. Don, no one who lives in San Diego gets to complain about the weather ....... ever!
I have traveled the world several times over. San Diego still remains my favorite city any where. Sure wish the cost of housing wasn't so bad or I would be living there too!
I bet the KPA works great in San Diego
Welcome! I too came to the Kemper from the Avid Eleven Rack. There are a few things I miss about it:
- The fact that it's its own audio & MIDI USB interface
- Great integration with Pro Tools - it automatically remembers which patch you used for which take, so you don't need to save, label, and manage patches for every track you record
- Re-amping without noticeable latency, having to set up ins/outs etc.
BUT - the Kemper just sounds way better. First thing I did when I got the Kemper was to re-amp some pedal steel tracks I'd recorded with the 11R, using a similar profile (Twin with a 15) - as I texted my friend, the KPA made the 11R sound like "dried up dog s***" FWIW
OK .... Here is where the rubber really hits the road. The KPA simply sound fantastic... The 11 rack .... Not so much.
Why is it not possible with software alone? Apart from considerations about latency or hardware power amps, kemper could easily be a VST and sound super close to how it does now, recorded. In my experience, Helix native sounds like the hardware unit.
I've also done tests using things like amplitube, s gear vs profiles of comparable amp models vs similar real world amp models, using the same IRs, where very few could tell the difference. Even then, it hasn't always been a case of "this or that is clearly better". At times, I've found such judgement to be more in line with what's shown on the screen and where a test is shared compared to sound alone. Of course, that's not the whole story either.
I tested the TH3 VST. I didn't think it was too bad, actually. With similar IRs to what I use with direct profiles, I got relatively close to my kemper tones. That said, I still preferred profiles of my amps.
Hi Dimi,
I mostly agree with you.
The Kemper is a DSP engine at its roots for sure. IMO, the biggest value the platform has is its ability to very effectively parameterize a system response captured from a real amp so that it is very easy for a user to tweak after the profile to their own taste.
In theory, a PC (with the proper hardware) could do the same thing .... but they haven't. Kemper's IP isn't just that it captures the amp so well, it also:
1) Tweaks the amp so well
2) Provides an easy to understand and use EFX engine
3) Provides a cataloging system for performances
4) Provides hardware which is road worthy (A PC is not road worthy IMO)
5) Provides controls which tube amp users are used to dealing with (little or no training)
6) Provides a remote that is both road worthy, and well integrated into the KPA.
A VST won't do these things no matter how well they capture the amp system response. Additionally, the dedicated hardware in the Kemper provides a very low latency chain which allows all the processing to occur without phase and time alignment issues. While this is possible in the PC, it is really only seen IME on high end digital mixers.
– No USBinterface. The 11rack is a complete USB audio interface.
True. The only good news I can give you is that USB audio interfaces are prolific and cheep these days if recording is your thing.
– No MIDI/USBinterface unlike the 11rack. Just program change and a fewcontrollers.
I you purchase a USB MIDI cable (I use the M-Audio "Uno"), you can do much more than just program changes. In fact, a 3rd party off-line editor (Toast ME) uses the MIDI interface to remotely do pretty much everything the Kemper is capable of. Check it out.
Additionally, Kemper will soon be releasing their own editor which will use the existing USB interface only (no MIDI cable needed).
– No microphonepreamp like the 11rack has, on the front, with 48 V phantom power.
Nope. Again, there are quite a few of these on the market that are fairly inexpensive.
– i bought thetoaster version because the rack version wasn’t available. The11rack is more convenient. The toaster takes up valuable space on mydesk. Those rotating lights around the soft knobs are cool though!
I hear you, but if you are doing mostly work next to a computer, having all those physical amp controls is really kind of cool don't you think? I do agree, it takes up more desk space though.
– It takes longerto boot. My 11rack starts up in 15 seconds. The Kemper is like acomputer, it takes 45 seconds to boot with just the factory presetsinside.
Once you get your favorite sounds cataloged on your Kemper, you can erase everything else and you will get a faster boot time..... but likely not 15 seconds. Since you are always close to your computer, you can always just utilize rig manager to keep track of all the stuff you want to keep around for a rainy day, but don't really want clogging up your Kemper.
– When i want tofill an empty slot with an effect i have to scroll through the entirelong list. Why can’t you jump more directly to the type of effectyou want, e.g. Chorus?
Yep. One of my major gripes too. As already stated, this is on its way this year.
Conclusion. IMHO this is a game changing, and life saving
I hear you (again), but I always felt that cold beer splashed into my VHT UL would likely ruin my day as well
The most impressive part you left out....... You can get incredible tone from the Kemper with very little time. You end up playing instead of tweaking. It is really a fantastic sounding device.
I have spent a full day with my kemper and an axeIII. while both sounded good, the KPA was vastly superior in it's ability to get to.a great tone fast. Axe will surely get there ..... Eventually.
I think that people who just want to get great tones an then simply focus their time on playing and enjoying their music, the KPA is unrivalled.
A small and lower pri
ced floor unit is a very good idea though. If you are only able to Shell out 1k, Kemper has nothing for you ....... At this time.
There is absolutely a market for a floor pedal that is all-in-one. I started with such a unit many years ago. What was really cool about it was that it was soooooo small and light.
Small and light is a really big deal for lots of people.
Yes. it's that easy. I run IEM with my Kemper and mono or stereo to FOH. A monitor is nice if you want to create feedback and overtones. Otherwise, this kit is very easy to keep it simple. The foot controller is an essential IMO for live use.
Exactly this!
If you want some air interaction with your strings, you need a monitor speaker pointed at you even if you run the main outputs directly to the FOH.
I don't run my IEM's from my Kemper, but rather from my X32 Rack mixer rack which has my IEM sends in it too. The speaker monitor on stage would only be needed for getting good feedback.
I generally don't play much lead, so I just go straight into the FOH. Rhythm tones are great this way and it makes for a crazy simple gig rig..... and damn light too.
If you play lots of leads or heavy distortion and need lots of feedback, you might want to consider a monitor to get the air around you moving. Lots of times, just the FOH bouncing around off walls and onto stage is enough for me to get some serious whine and overtones.... but you have to have the FOH volume at a decently high level for that.
I believe that it will compete in a market Kemper doesn't currently have an entry for.
A $1000 fully functional Axe FX with a built in foot controller is a pretty high sound to dollar ratio. I have been wanting Kemper to come out with a foot controller version also .... but I would forego the editing on the unit in favor of a tablet and PC application. I would also include a physical format more like Kempers foot controller for performances.
Still, Fractal has undercut Line 6 with a device that very likely has sound quality close to Kemper (and a much nicer editor) and kept the price under 1K. Not bad IMO.
While I think Kemper should make a foot controller, and that Fractal's new offering is really nice, I will not change from a rack setup simply due to the fact that it is REALLY convenient to have only 1 cable going out to my performance area for my foot controller. You can't get that with an all-in-one foot controller. You always have a cord mess around your mic stand 
When two amp sounds sound the same, than it is impossible that one sound will drown in the mix, while the other doesn‘t. If these sounds behave differently, than they simply do not sound the same, no matter what a pro says.
And yes, this might be about high frequencies and transients, as some users state in this thread.
If there were esotheric parts in the sound, that would make a difference in a busy mix, then those parts would easily be identified, when listening solo, especially for a pro.
I would suggest that the profiling process will capture the dynamic response as well. The ability to translate the transient to the speakers would likely be more a property of the amp and speaker being used. I believe that the actual signal contains the accurate transient response in most cases.
The Kemper isn't for everyone IMO. If you like to tweak on a PC, the AxeFX is unsurpassed.
For myself, I simply want to get to great tone quick, and then play. The Kemper is unsurpassed in this regard IMO.
Look at “ToastME” editor for Kemper. Very nice editor
The Kemper, on the other hand, seeks to replicate a signal path already in existence. It's not trying to capture a tone and then put a "Kemper spin" on it.
Perhaps just a clarification, but maybe not .....
Kemper does not replicate a signal path in any way (Fractal does).
What Kemper does (at a very basic level) is capture the system response of an amplifier, speaker, and microphone by putting a known set of signals into the "system" and measuring the output to see what the "system" does to that set of signals.
In Electrical Engineering there is a concept know as the system transfer function (commonly represented by "H(S)". The theory is that you hit the system (anything you can put an electrical signal into and get another signal out of) with a function called a delta function (an infinitely high, infinitely thin spike at time=0) and what comes out is the "impulse response".
If you do some math (or DSP) with this impulse response you can exactly replicate the behavior of the thing you got the impulse response from (and get this) for any input, not just the delta function.
This is a very very basic (and definitely not complete) theory of what Kemper does when it "Profiles" an amp.
There are no circuit blocks inside the profile of an amp.... not like there are for a model (fractal).
It is a truly new way of capturing true tube amp tone and reproducing it live.
And kemper isn’t a total replica of any amp it profiles?
No. It isn't.
It may sound like that amp, but it has less in common with a tube amp than your toaster has with your refrigerator.
Lookup any patent on any amp on the planet and try to find something Kemper has "pirated".
Kemper is unique. The design they use is nothing like anything that came before it AFAIK.
Making the same sound as something else does isn't violating any law. To me, this is no different than Amazon selling digital books on-line for a fraction of the price that hard bound books in a brick and mortar store sell for. Both Kemper and Amazon simply found a better way to do what they do.
In 1988 Apple sued Microsoft for stealing their "look and feel". The outcome of this case was legendary in that the courts set the precedent that "look and feel" can not be patented. (As an aside it was ironic that Apple sued MS because they literally stole the idea from Xerox).
Just like you can't patent look and feel, you can't patent a sonic behavior either. If you could, then a zillion VST plug-ins would have gotten sued for sounding exactly like the hardware units they were inspired by.
IMO, the VST plug-in model is where modern amp makers should be going. Check out Eventide's plug-ins: https://www.eventideaudio.com/products/plugins
There are literally thousands of VST plugins you can get for free. An Eventide rack mount processor can run you around 5K-8K, but you can get the VST for a few hundred.
The big difference between Eventide and Kemper is that very few people could make their own VST at home that came even close to an Eventide while nearly anyone can make a profile with Kemper that is nearly indistinguishable from the real thing.
In a way, it is like capturing an entire signal chain. That's why you can even capture a preamp chain in the studio. Definitely a new and novel technology.
It is being copied now, it would appear, such as by that guitar amp sim which Slate Digital is promoting. That will result in the price point (assuming that Slate's tech is legit) dropping due to its availability as software.
I think the KPA is a great deal more than an algorithm. It is a world class gig machine from bumper to bumper.
Software mixers have been all the rage for recording for quite some time. You still see nothing but hardware out there running PA's though. Same thing IMO. There is more to it than just the algorithms.
It's unique in that it simply provides an algorithm and has users do much of the work and bring value to the product.
While I find it interesting .... even nice ... that the KPA can capture an amp, MementoMori has the key I believe.
The huge bank of sounds that are available (and cheep ... or even free) is incredible.
Keep in mind that not all amps will sound good to all people with all guitar setups. I always find it amazing the differences in opinion about what a "great" guitar tone sounds like. The many profiles surely outline this if nothing else.
The real key for me isn't necessarily any of the above though. For me it comes down to:
1) You can get an array of great sounds fast and easy
2) It is small, light, has a great gig interface, and includes studio class effects.
I sort of understand where you are coming from and don't mean to be argumentative or anything but I still stand by my point that the modeller is MORE like having the AMP than the KPA is. The modeller aims to MODEL the entire circuit of the amp and is based on the actual amp's design which the manufacturer has a valid right to protect. However, the KPA is a snapshot of "the entire signal chain" in that respect it is more like a CD (could have said vinyl but that would really show my age
I agree, and I disagree.
While I agree that the modeling approach comes closer to the text book definition of a patent violation, I think that there are some significant points to make about this.
First,
No one makes Axe vs Real Amp comparisons where you can't tell the difference between one and the other (at least I haven't heard any). No one says that the Axe doesn't sound good (or great even), but rarely do they say they can't tell the difference between the Axe and their Mesa IME.
What this suggests is that while (in theory) a digital version of the real circuit should provide the same output as the real components, it is currently failing to do so convincingly. Note, again, this isn't to say that modelers sound bad, they just don't sound exactly like the amps they are modeling the way a good Kemper profile does.
In real life, the tube amp ends up having unique sonic qualities that the modeler doesn't capture.
Second,
There is no way a tube amp maker could successfully sue a guitar modeler company and win. Using a computer to make sound is always going to be a completely different thing from making a hard electrical circuit to do it. No jury would ever rule any different IMO.
Third,
Kemper's approach (which by the way has been taught to every electrical engineer for the last 50 years), is simply better at capturing a specific amp setup convincingly. The real problem tube amp makers have with Kemper is the level to which it succeeds at sounding ..... exactly like the real thing.
Please note, that Kemper isn't perfect. It isn't the real thing. It doesn't behave like the real thing does to changing channels, adjusting gain, or a plethora of other settings that various real tube amps have adjustments for.
Ironically perhaps, the modeling approach should have an advantage here and be more able to react to controls the way the real amp would. It has been my experience that real world applications of the Kemper are simply easier to achieve and work with.
..... but I digress from my own primary point. Kemper and Axe Fx offer features that real tube amps don't. They are lighter, smaller, and infinitely more flexible than a tube amp setup with a pedal board. In other words, they are a better gig machine in every possible way when compared to a tube amp.
The one exception to this rule (and it is a big one), is that you can get into a really good sounding rig with a 1x12 tube amp combo and a hand full of pedals at a fraction of the price of either a Kemper rig or an Axe Fx rig. It won't be as flexible, but for way less money, you can get a really nice sounding rig you can gig with this way.
I wonder if this will be the case in 10 years though.
