Weird that no-one mentioned it yet...

    Quote from Monkey_Man

    Why does it need to be swamped in reverb?


    Probably because the guy liked it and thought it sounded good, ya know like Eddie does. Like that very famous Kemper Golub Crunch mod Marshall clip where the guy uses a Strymon Blue Sky and a little Brute drive and Kemper reverb and ambience. Why not the just Kemper on board effects? Because it sounded good. Dean's Bogner clip has a bunch of delay, works for me. In all 3 clips, Deans, the Golub, and that random Axe Bogner, I can still hear the tones and to my ear, they are all just dandy with the Golub leading the pack.


    External Content www.youtube.com
    Content embedded from external sources will not be displayed without your consent.
    Through the activation of external content, you agree that personal data may be transferred to third party platforms. We have provided more information on this in our privacy policy.


    Probably one of the best amp tones ever in that.


    I didn't think posting a clip here would go over well at all. Kinda like eating a bacon sandwich in a Mosque. I just thought that clip Dean put up of the Axe Bogner was a bad clip.

    Quote from zentman

    ... Kinda like eating a bacon sandwich in a Mosque. I just thought that clip Dean put up of the Axe Bogner was a bad clip.

    LOL, good one Zentman. I didn't post the clip specifically because I thought it was bad, I just honestly couldn't find a clip and neither could anyone else point me to any clips, before I even bought the KPA, that didn't sound bad in comparison with the Kemper.

    I get that folks like to pile on the 'verb 'cause it sounds good, zentman; thank you for that.


    The thing is, smatterings of it such as I heard in the last 2 clips, make pretty much anything sound better. If I listen closely, I hear something "artificial" going on in the fizz portion of the sound - in the top end, but my brain quickly latches onto the reverb tails, which I believe it enjoys the sound of (lots of complex numbers to crunch), and in so doing quickly forgets said anomalous aspect of the sound. The Kemper Bogner XTC clip by Guido Bungenstock is as dry as the Sahara, so there's absolutely nothing to distract my brain's hunger for crunching numbers, meaning that any pleasure must be derived from the sound alone... and to be clear, I believe much pleasure is indeed derived therefrom when I listen to it.


    A small(!) explanation for those who may not be aware of the background for my assertion:


    The brain likes to crunch numbers. A child relegated to a room, no matter how imaginatively-painted, with a bunch of toys, no matter how colourful and varied in shape, experiences almost immediate brain boredom. Every shape, texture, colour and juxtaposition thereof is for all intents and purposes immediately calculated. Job done, so what's next for the brain? Comparatively speaking, nothing. In contrast to this, if he / she were to gaze at a tree (with leaves, preferably) whilst it swayed in the wind, the barrage of mathematical information from both the sounds produced as well as the ever-shifting geometric complexity of the leaves and branches would provide what I like to call fodder for his / her brain's previously-stated hunger for mathematical challenge; said individual would therefore be contributing more to his / her brain's development, intelligence, and even the feeling of contentment and belonging, than would have been the case in that room. Much more. Sure, other factors such as the stimulating variations in scents on offer and the tactile sensations of the wind on his / her skin would contribute also, but when we're talking about exciting (to the brain) mathematics, IMHO, neither of these can hold a candle to the challenges presented by that tree.


    Now, assuming you've followed thus far, you might be asking yourself what, beyond cognisant assimilation of those shifting shapes, is it that presents a challenge? Herein lies the key to understanding what I'm banging on about. The brain's computing power, or its ability to handle massive parallel processing of numbers, its bandwidth, if you will, is so ridiculously immense that it is forced to "play" with the paltry fodder we expose it to in order to make things interesting (to it - ego, on the other hand, is an easy room!). It's been said that its bandwidth is more or less equivalent to the entire US communications system - every Email, tweet, forum post, PooToob stream, porn, music and movie download and stream - everything, and even that may be a conservative estimate. There are as many neural connections as there are electrical ones planet-wide. This includes every occasion where two or more wires have been soldered, twisted or taped together, every connection within every chip, circuit board, tone knob... you get the idea.


    I only half explained what's going on. It's the nature of this "entertainment" or number-play that I find truly fascinating - the brain will literally add and subtract, and possibly multiply and divide, every number it receives with / to every other one... in real time. That's the killer, right there. That's how those leaves' movements provide such wonderful fodder. That's why those reverb tails are so attractive (and ultimately a masking distraction); they're generated by algorithms that produce "complex" mathematically-derived "reflections" (EQ-filtered and possibly pitch-shifted repeats at best) which the brain finds far more "fodder" in than, say, the comparatively-simple waveforms and harmonics of distorted amps, fun as they might be for it to play with. Simply put, there are more numbers to be crunched in these tails. Oh, and for what it's worth, distorted tube amps produce complex sets of numbers also, with varying mixes of odd and even-order harmonics, the mix of which is determined by the tubes employed and the bias settings. Obviously, mathematical models thereof diminish in their attractiveness to the brain as their complexity wanes; at one extreme might be a mid-'90s el-cheapo modeller, and at the other, a Kemper.


    One might wonder, based upon what I've said, how full mixes of instruments are handled and what sort of fodder they provide. Well, it's my belief that the brain adds and subtracts (and again, possibly multiplies and divides) every fundamental frequency (those that provide pitch information) as well as the harmonics, of every instrument in the mix, in real time. This alone may account for the so-called healing properties of music. Just like erasing ferrous tape (aligning particles electromagnetically), tuning a car or running maintenance routines on a computer, "good" (pleasing, mathematically elegant) sequences of numbers, when processed by the brain, again, IMHO, bring balance, a return to "normality", enhanced neural connectivity and ultimately fuel brain as well as personal growth, and our understanding of and a sense of connection(!) to our environment.


    Ignore this paragraph if you like (if you can!); it's not strictly relevant to the explanation, but it's related and interesting nevertheless: It is my contention that none of us has ever heard a mix of instruments as it would truly sound. There's no objective way to prove we have - machines lack appreciation of aesthetics, and beside this, have no way of conveying what a "true" mix would sound like anyway. At this point, some will think I've lost the plot. I beg to differ. Masking frequencies, time-domain masking (play a sound too soon after another and you don't hear it, a phenomenon exploited by MP3 and other compression algorithms since day dot), beat frequencies and sum-and-difference tones (false notes and sounds produced as results of physical fundamental and harmonic interactions, mostly between instruments) alter what were originally true, untainted representations of our mix. These phenomena alone preclude our perceiving this unattainable, "true" mix I speak of. Now, add to this the new frequencies produced as results of all those mathematical calculations our brains are executing in real time in the name of entertainment (exercise, really), and you can easily see that my assertion that nobody's ever heard a mix in its raw, truthful, unadulterated form, may not be absurd after all.


    Quick observation: Classical orchestral music, often touted for its apparent healing power, as well as its ability to enhance intelligence and possibly creativity (I'd certainly argue that), is by its very nature complex. It's sophisticated harmonically and rhythmically. It abounds with individual instruments' harmonics, which are themselves predominantly even-order in nature, meaning that they constitute and would allow for the making of "pretty", more-elegant numbers when played with by the brain. To clarify: Percussive instruments are dominated by odd-order harmonics - not as pretty, but should produce less-predictable results when combined (in the real-time calculations) with the aforementioned "prettier" numbers, not unlike spices or sauce in / on food.


    The bottom line here is that the more complex (smoother, more reflections) reverb is, the greater distraction it becomes to unbiased analysis of the dry signal, whether it be a vocal, flute or kazoo. My housemate and best friend, who unfortunately died 10 years ago, was a bagpiper. My preference was to hear his confounded instrument when he was not drunk (which was never), and with a lot of reverb. A whole lot!


    Projection based on my basic supposition - in effect, a test of its efficacy:


    If there's any truth to what I've figured out, Axe owners, statistically at least, will be more inclined to use 'verb and other sauces... I mean, FX, and when they do, to use greater amounts of them. Kemper users, on the other hand, should be less inclined to use them, and when they do, should find themselves making more subtle use of them... statistically (generally) speaking.


    Sorry for the mini-novel. It was fun to write, and incredibly... not off-topic because if we're going to compare amp models between the two units, the utility or otherwise of smatterings of reverb (and delay, but to a much-lesser extent) must, IMHO, be examined.

    Years ago I would have hung around and argued for hours to no conclusion. I don't do that anymore. This is a Kemper forum where Fractal is a bad word. It would be as pointless as going to the Democratic National Convention as a Republican. Nobody in this forum will be swayed. Many will argue just to be right. If you'd like to hear more Axe clips google "Axe Fx II soundcloud". You will hear dry, wet, clean dirty, etc. to your hearts content. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I gig with the Axe and CLRs, people love me live, and that's all there is to my story. Please enjoy your wonderful Kempers and peace to all of you here in the land of Kemper. :)

    Quote from zentman

    Years ago I would have hung around and argued for hours to no conclusion. I don't do that anymore. This is a Kemper forum where Fractal is a bad word. It would be as pointless as going to the Democratic National Convention as a Republican. Nobody in this forum will be swayed. Many will argue just to be right. If you'd like to hear more Axe clips google "Axe Fx II soundcloud". You will hear dry, wet, clean dirty, etc. to your hearts content. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I gig with the Axe and CLRs, people love me live, and that's all there is to my story. Please enjoy your wonderful Kempers and peace to all of you here in the land of Kemper. :)


    You're definitely a rational individual and I appreciate you taking the time. The reality the way I see it, is if one was to make a choice, about which is the more musical accurate Amp modeler, it's not that difficult to go with the kemper based on , clips , comparisons, first hand experience. Imagine someone tells you to pick your best sounding tube amplifier and they will give you the tool, to capture that sound including all of its dynamics (not just a snap shot) of how it will sound recorded so you will always have access to that sound. It sounds like a fairy tale. I know I might sound like I'm gushing with enthusiasm, but think about it for a minute.
    I still didn't believe 100% until I modeled (profiled, cloned) my own amps and Preamps because I love to analyze and decipher facts. You or I have no need to imagine anymore. The Kemper does this very well since its release a few years ago.


    A month and a half ago I had the choice, AXE II , Kemper or Helix. I tried the AXE and wasn't impressed and finally it hit me. I don't have to wait for the Helix if Kemper truly does what was demonstrated in the profiling sessions I've seen in youtube. The best, and the not so good, real world amps are accurately there for anyone to compare head to head! How can anything get better than this? This is not a hyperbole, It's simply a problem or a question that has been clearly solved and the solution is there for everyone to see. No one including Fractal or line 6, is showing any proof that they have solved the equations or the questions correctly. Not even pictures of the amps appear in their websites (maybe in fear that someone might ask for clips and then they would realize how not so accurate the modeling really is). Why can't they prove the skeptics wrong by showing videos or clips? Because their solution is partial and it doesn't deserve full credit from a scientific point of view but from marketing gimmicks they're able so far to demand premium price for not such good accurate solutions.


    How to accurately model tube amps? You have many answers and the only one that shows you clearly and demonstrates the solution is Kemper. We've compared some clips here of the same amp and the difference is very apparent to me as it was before I made the decision to purchase the Kemper, so there's no fanboysim involved in my part.

    Edited once, last by Dean_R ().

    Like 1
    Quote from zentman

    ...This is a Kemper forum where Fractal is a bad word.


    Not necessarily. Many here own an Axe as well as a Kemper, and of those who don't own both, some simply cannot afford to buy the Axe.


    Quote from zentman

    It would be as pointless as going to the Democratic National Convention as a Republican.


    That's hyperbolic, but funny! LOL


    Quote from zentman

    Nobody in this forum will be swayed.


    If a product's good enough, it's surely possible. Unlikely, but possible given this condition.


    Quote from zentman

    Many will argue just to be right.


    No I won't. I'm not right and I still want to argue. Many have the right to argue. I have the right to argue. I wanna argue.


    Just kidding, of course.


    Quote from zentman

    If you'd like to hear more Axe clips google "Axe Fx II soundcloud". You will hear dry, wet, clean dirty, etc. to your hearts content. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I gig with the Axe and CLRs, people love me live, and that's all there is to my story. Please enjoy your wonderful Kempers and peace to all of you here in the land of Kemper. :)


    Thanks zentman.


    I'm glad you're happy with your rig too, and that folks love your live sound. Sounds good to me.


    Cheers mate