Three "Features" RM Simply Must Have

    Hi beloved, fellow Kemperites. I'll cut to the chase:


    1) Folders should display the total number of rigs contained in their subfolders, just as they do for their own rigs.


    2) Such folders, when selected, should display, and therefore allow one to browse, all the rigs contained in their subfolders.


    As things stand, folders that contain subfolders are deadweight; they're useless apart from the fact that they're containers that can be named.


    What I'm asking for is, as far as I'm aware, a standard method of hierarchical-content organisation, and IMHO it will greatly speed up and simplify browsing for the vast majority of users, and likely all those who employ folder nesting. I waited 'till I updated to the latest RM version to post this as I half expected this stuff to have been put in place; it's a no-brainer, period. Just updated 5 minutes ago, so here I am, and here we go...


    Thank you for your time and also for the awesome community we're building, peeps!


    EDIT: I'd forgotten to post this obviously-related aspect of my requested functionality, so, quoting from post #8:


    3) Something that would further enhance RM's usability and that flows logically from my requests would be the ability to see the rigs for more than a single folder; the ability to highlight and browse folders using the click-drag / command-drag / shift-click (for range-selection) methods inherent to the Mac / Windows operating systems, would complete the logical set of features my request constitutes.

    Hey MM


    I might have got this wrong... but..


    1) - Mine show all the rigs in folder/subfolders


    2) - When I click on any folder, it only displays all those rigs for that folder.


    Im guessing this does not work the same with you?


    Here is a screenshot of mine as it stands right now..
    And sorry of I got what your saying wrong : )


    [Blocked Image: http://www.theampfactory.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/rigmanager.jpg]

    1) But in that case you can't know how many rigs are in the folder and how many in the subfolders.
    So, -1 here.


    2) If you want all the rigs displayed, do you still need subfolders? Just save the rigs in the main folder.
    So, -1 again here. Sorry ;)

    Edited 2 times, last by rothko61 ().

    Rothko61, in fact you would know how many are in the folder as well as in the subfolders.


    Taking Andy's example picture above, the TAF-Bundles folder, if highlighted, would display a number where the "0" is, and all the rigs contained therein would be displayed on the right-hand side. Because he had the disclosure triangle "open", all 10 packs' folders would still be visible in exactly the same way.


    On your second point, it's handy to have separate folders (subfolders) for the sake of clarity and also to expedite the backup / syncing process for those who, like me, keep zip files / archives of all packs added to RM; it just makes the process of checking what's there against one's archives a whole lot easier. I drag directly from RM into appropriately-names folders in order to back everything up, so every pack has an identically-named backup folder that mirrors what's in RM. As soon as one groups these packs, identifying what one has added or what might be missing becomes a right PITA.


    I did originally group things as you suggested, but the aforementioned issue posed a road block for me every time I sought to ensure everything was in place whilst backing up.


    Andy, as you've probably figured out by now, yes, you did misunderstand me, but I appreciate your feedback as well as the posting of your pic as it has served to help illustrate what I'm banging on about, mate.


    Lastly, something that would further enhance RM's usability and that flows logically from my requests would be the ability to see the rigs for more than a single folder; the ability to highlight and browse folders using the click-drag / command-drag / shift-click (for range-selection) methods inherent to the Mac / Windows operating systems, would complete the logical set of features my request constitutes. It's just logical, Batman!


    EDIT: My backup methods aside, the single most important reason I've raised these things is that they'll make browsing simpler and more fun; less futzing about clicking folders and more up / down-arrow auditioning is the aim of the game here. Select the parent folder (a genre / style / grouping of rigs) and you're away, or select a "select" range or non-contiguous group of folders... and you're away. Either way, you're away, and won't have to constantly break the audition flow by scratching your head and wondering which folder to click on next. Sometimes you know exactly which folder / pack you're after. Great - highlight it and you're done, but most of the time, for me at least, I'd like to be able to browse sub-sections that aren't limited to single-folder groupings.


    I've ranted enough. If my beloved Kemperites can't see these features' benefitting them, so be it; all I know for sure is that these enhancements would certainly make life a whole lot less complicated for lil' ol' me from the get-go.

    I got your point but this would work only if you have rigs stored just in the sbfolders, not in the main folder.
    Taking again Andy's example picture, the TAF bundles folder could contain rigs AND subfolders. In that case if you read the number (132) instead of (0), just as an example, it would mean that you have 132 rigs in the folder PLUS the 10 pack's subfolders with their rigs.
    This is why I prefer to know only the number of the rigs, not including those which are in the subfolders.

    Aahh... yes, I totally get you and you've misunderstood the request, mate; perhaps I wasn't clear enough.


    Nothing changes except for the display of the rigs when the folder's highlighted. IOW, it's still just a container, but becomes a much more useful one.


    EDIT: I've been having a private conversation where someone pointed out to me that this has been raised more than once before. The Kemper Team's defence has been that folders follow the pattern of behaviour one encounters in, say, the Mac Finder, where highlighting one doesn't reveal the contents of subfolders. Here's my answer to that, quoted from said conversation:


    The Finder analogy is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned as in that case one's dealing with multiple file types, whereas in RM it's only rigs that are involved and there's basically a single purpose to clicking folders - to view / edit / audition rigs.

    I think the problem that RM tries to use folders as both "a folder of user content" and "a folder of nested content." To me, it's laziness on the developer's behalf, as this is not a hard feature to do right, but Kemper is primarily involved with hardware, as we've seen with their lack of a complete software editor for the Kemper.


    Look at iTunes or Spotify for great examples of how it SHOULD work. When you create a folder, it contains playlists of songs. Nothing can be stored in a folder directly except playlists. Clicking on the folder displays all content underneath.


    Now apply this same logic to RM and rigs. There should be a difference between a "playlist" of rigs and a "folder" of rigs.


    "All Rigs" has this correct - it's a folder that doesn't store anything. It's an index of everything underneath. However, "folders" serve dual-purpose, and I agree that this method is incorrect.

    Guitars: Parker Fly Mojo Flame, Ibanez RG7620 7-string, Legator Ninja 8-string, Fender Strat & Tele, Breedlove Pro C25
    Pedalboard: Templeboards Trio 43, Mission VM-1, Morley Bad Horsie, RJM Mini Effect Gizmo, 6 Degrees FX Sally Drive, Foxpedals The City, Addrock Ol' Yeller, RJM MMGT/22, Mission RJM EP-1, Strymon Timeline + BigSky
    Stack: Furman PL-Plus C, Kemper Rack

    Now I read it all with comments and I don't get your point? :whistling: Maybe because I don't know how iTunes and Spottify work. Take the example below:


    [Blocked Image: http://s23.postimg.org/gfo3euvbv/ss3.jpg]


    What are the users' requirements in case of folders' numbers, searches? Well this should have been defined like 2 years ago :D But let's have a workshop, and try to define current state, and what's desired related to current state:


    1) user can create root folders in "Local Library" folder
    2) user can create subfolders inside root folder
    3) user cannot create folders in subfolders


    4) user can put rigs inside "Local Library" folder
    5) user can put rigs inside root folder
    6) user can put rigs inside subfolders


    7) total number of rigs inside "Local Library" folder is displayed after "Local Library", it doesn't count any rigs inside any of subfolders of "Local Library"
    8 ) total number of rigs inside root folder is displayed after the each root folder name, it doesn't count any rigs inside any of subfolders of root folders
    9) total number of rigs inside subfolders' is displayed after each subfolder name


    10) searching is not performed on any of nested subfolders, just on current marked folder


    IS THIS current state? what change do you need Monkey_Man based on these 10 points?


    Is this iTunes Spottify thing working like that that only deepest nested subfolder can contain rigs? so 4) and 5) is false then?


    Wow, you've really put... a lot of thought into this. However, I think you're way overthinking this. Your biggest holdup seems to be the level/degree of folder recursion, and, honestly, that shouldn't matter or be a constraint. Maybe you should download iTunes and take a look at it. Or, better yet, look at your own computer's file structure. PC, Mac, Linux, whatever, they all work on the concept of folders/directories that contain things. It doesn't matter how many folders you put in a folder.


    There should be two things: A "playlist" and a "folder." A folder is a folder regardless if it's nested under another folder or on the top level - the term "subfolder" shouldn't even be used here. A "playlist" or "rig list" should contain rigs and rigs alone, and, as a "playlist," they should not have anything nested underneath. Your "All Rigs" library acts as a folder - it contains and lists all contents underneath (again, regardless if it's directly underneath or 7 sub-folders deep). Other folders should be able to be created to nest additional folders and/or playlists underneath.


    As far as searching, it should be from the state of the current selection. Since a folder displays all of it's contents, selecting a folder (like your All Rigs/Local Library/And44 folder) should search all playlists/rig lists nested underneath. Selecting All Rigs/Local Library/And44/Pack2 would search only that playlist.


    These suggestions are based off how computers work and function and commonly used paradigms. Developing things like RM with a different structure breaks the UI that a typical computer user understands from using apps like Spotify, iTunes, Finder (OS X), Windows Explorer, any IDE (Sublime Text, RedMine/RubyMine, Atom, TextMate, etc.), or, really, any application with a sidebar that manages playlists or files.

    Guitars: Parker Fly Mojo Flame, Ibanez RG7620 7-string, Legator Ninja 8-string, Fender Strat & Tele, Breedlove Pro C25
    Pedalboard: Templeboards Trio 43, Mission VM-1, Morley Bad Horsie, RJM Mini Effect Gizmo, 6 Degrees FX Sally Drive, Foxpedals The City, Addrock Ol' Yeller, RJM MMGT/22, Mission RJM EP-1, Strymon Timeline + BigSky
    Stack: Furman PL-Plus C, Kemper Rack

    dougc84, let's have it this way


    1) user can create folders and nested folders
    2) user can put rigs inside folders and any of nested folders (or not can put rigs only in deepest nested folder?)
    3) total number of rigs displayed after folder name should count all the rigs inside curent folder as well as inside in all of nested folders
    4) the search scope is current folder and all nested folders (if any)


    how about that?

    Quote from skoczy

    dougc84, let's have it this way


    1) user can create folders and nested folders
    2) user can put rigs inside folders and any of nested folders (or not can put rigs only in deepest nested folder?)
    3) total number of rigs displayed after folder name should count all the rigs inside curent folder as well as inside in all of nested folders
    4) the search scope is current folder and all nested folders (if any)


    how about that?


    Your usage of two similar names for "folder" is confusing. Call it a "rig list" or something at least, because it's difficult to understand exactly what you're saying. Any folder underneath under another folder is a nested folder, regardless if there are rigs in it or not.

    Guitars: Parker Fly Mojo Flame, Ibanez RG7620 7-string, Legator Ninja 8-string, Fender Strat & Tele, Breedlove Pro C25
    Pedalboard: Templeboards Trio 43, Mission VM-1, Morley Bad Horsie, RJM Mini Effect Gizmo, 6 Degrees FX Sally Drive, Foxpedals The City, Addrock Ol' Yeller, RJM MMGT/22, Mission RJM EP-1, Strymon Timeline + BigSky
    Stack: Furman PL-Plus C, Kemper Rack

    Quote from skoczy

    dougc84, let's have it this way


    1) user can create folders and nested folders
    2) user can put rigs inside folders and any of nested folders (or not can put rigs only in deepest nested folder?)
    3) total number of rigs displayed after folder name should count all the rigs inside curent folder as well as inside in all of nested folders
    4) the search scope is current folder and all nested folders (if any)


    how about that?


    Works for me. That about sums it up, Skoczy, I think - I haven't thought about this since I got it off my chest by starting this thread.


    No matter, the two main things for me are definitely being able to see the total rig count for every folder and being able to browse ALL contents for every folder.


    EDIT: Yet again I forgot about the ability to be able to select multiple folders for combined / amalgamated browsing. Critical, this one, when you think about it, especially so if you've broken things down into many folders for the sake of clarity and accessibility.

    Quote from dougc84

    Your usage of two similar names for "folder" is confusing. Call it a "rig list" or something at least, because it's difficult to understand exactly what you're saying. Any folder underneath under another folder is a nested folder, regardless if there are rigs in it or not.


    I don't use similar names for folder here anywhere :)


    what are you missing in these 4 points? how it is different from this iTunes?


    1) user can create folders and nested folders
    2) user can put rigs inside folders and any of nested folders
    3) total number of rigs displayed after folder name should count all the rigs inside current folder as well as inside of all nested folders
    4) the search scope is current folder and all nested folders (if any)