Kemper vs. Real Amp Test - Cameron CCV

    Quote from Dimi84

    I don't agree with your points, or about having profiled amps -- the analogies don't add up to me there; but anyway, no point to go back and forth.
    Video on youtube later on more recent kemper findings. I will probably open a new thread about it.


    Cheerios

    You don't have to agree, but I think those points are valid. You don't have to actually do something to be able to have an opinion about it. You don't have to be a musician to have a valid opinion about music. Furthermore, I can hear the issues in the clips you've posted. Profiling an amp isn't going to change how prominent those issues are in your clips. I could hear them when I profiled the Axe FX. Profiling an amp or modeler isn't going to make those issues any more prominent to my ears. I hear them just fine. I just don't agree that they're all major issues. From an audible perspective, they're not. If profiling amps caused everyone to feel that the KPA's issues were significant then why doesn't Andy Sneap think they are?

    Quote from ColdFrixion

    You don't have to agree, but I think those points are valid. You don't have to actually do something to be able to have an opinion about it. You don't have to be a musician to have a valid opinion about music. Furthermore, I can hear the issues in the clips you've posted. Profiling an amp isn't going to change how prominent those issues are in your clips. I could hear them when I profiled the Axe FX. Profiling an amp or modeler isn't going to make those issues any more prominent to my ears. I hear them just fine. I just don't agree that they're all major issues. From an audible perspective, they're not. If profiling amps caused everyone to feel that the KPA's issues were significant then why doesn't Andy Sneap think they are?

    Andy sneap yes. But why doesn't Tremonti play a kemper and instead says the difference is quite important?


    This can go on for ever..


    Now of course it is a valid point to say that one doesn't have to do A to have an opinion about A. Yes. But that's dealing with extremes. There is variation here.


    I'm not saying that you absolutely need to do A to have an opinion about it. But this doesn't negate the fact that there is still a difference when it comes to varying levels of experience in A.


    Clearly Andy sneap is brought up as an authority on "tone" because of his experience and expertise.


    Similarly I do think that you don't quite get the full picture unless you have considerable experience in profiling amps. Profiling the axe can reveal a lot, sure, but it's still not the same compared setting up rigs and profiling them, when you can feel how the real amp responds right there switching A to B.


    Anyway I am really not interested on what counts as trivial or not, major, tiny, it seems so much about semantics.. You focus on sound, I am referring to feel more (not that these two are seperate), whatever.

    My phone screwing posts up. If some parts are in big font -- I am not actually shouting.


    Anyway putting together another video about approaches to better profiling. I've made a lot of observations the past days and did extensive testing today too. There are plenty of ways to get closer to real amp, but some of these I haven't heard of anywhere yet, and definitely not from kemper support either.


    It'll be a big video documenting it all, tests showing the difference when each method/trick is used, not used. Then showing what happens when "all goes wrong" and "all goes right".


    I'm getting some help from a studio guy here who was initially quite disappointed with kemper (his reason being not getting proper power tube saturation replicating) and we'll be putting in the few comings weekends going through some more test ideas.


    At this point I definitely think something is off with the kemper software. But there are ways to fool the device. Little ways here and there add up in the end.


    Health not good but I hope to finish the video soon enough, more so than the other one. Just too much to explain here, better done in a massive video.


    @SonicExporer cheerios, thanks, and I hope you are having some better luck with finding your tone.

    Quote from Dimi84

    Andy sneap yes. But why doesn't Tremonti play a kemper and instead says the difference is quite important?

    I've never read the comment you cited, but I'd like to if you have a link to the interview. According to an anecdotal report, Tremonti thinks the Kemper is amazing.


    This thread has dealt primarily with the audible deficiencies of the KPA and that's what I'm addressing. Earlier in the thread you stated, "The same shortcomings I have been talking about when it comes to profiling amps (and direct amp tones) were there as well." (with respect to the Axe FX)


    Even after profiling the Axe FX, my opinion regarding the audible deficiencies hasn't changed. Granted, I've developed a greater appreciation for what's involved with creating an accurate profile, but the differences don't sound more prominent or significant now than they did beforehand.


    Quote from Dimi84

    Anyway I am really not interested on what counts as trivial or not, major, tiny, it seems so much about semantics.. You focus on sound, I am referring to feel more (not that these two are seperate), whatever.

    When you've referred to low-end, rasp, congestion, compression, gating... those are audible. Feeling can't be relayed in the multiple audio clips / video you posted to demonstrate your points. I'm not saying you haven't referred to the kinesthetic factors regarding the KPA, but most of your points have dealt with terms that relate to audible issues.

    Quote from ColdFrixion

    I've never read the comment you cited, but I'd like to if you have a link to the interview. According to an anecdotal report, Tremonti thinks the Kemper is amazing.

    This thread has dealt primarily with the audible deficiencies of the KPA and that's what I'm addressing. Earlier in the thread you stated, "The same shortcomings I have been talking about when it comes to profiling amps (and direct amp tones) were there as well." (with respect to the Axe FX)
    Even after profiling the Axe FX, my opinion regarding the audible deficiencies hasn't changed. Granted, I've developed a greater appreciation for what's involved with creating an accurate profile, but the differences don't sound more prominent or significant now than they did beforehand.


    When you've referred to low-end, rasp, congestion, compression, gating... those are audible. Feeling can't be relayed in the multiple audio clips / video you posted to demonstrate your points. I'm not saying you haven't referred to the kinesthetic factors regarding the KPA, but most of your points have dealt with terms that relate to audible issues.

    I don't have a link to Tremonti interview, because I am not referring to an interview but personal experience. If I remember there was a video on YouTube as well with him being asked about kemper, but wasn't referring to that.


    About axe -- yes many of the effects are the same. But there is still a difference between profiling a modeller (imho the "feel" of the axe is not as good as most of the amps I've experimented with) and the real set ups. While the issues described appear in axe profiles too I do think there's an even bigger difference when going from a "this is it" amp tone to its profile, to be more exact.


    I also do think sound correlates to feel. If something sounds the same and the latency is the same it will also feel the same. So, in a way, referring to one seems me as implying referring to other as well. What I'm saying is that small audio differences usually translate to bigger differences in feel (some more than others, there seem to be certain kinds of differences that matter more than others). An audio difference can seem "trivial" to me if I simply hear it -- But it has implications when it comes to "feel", often substantial ones.

    Quote from Dimi84

    I don't have a link to Tremonti interview, because I am not referring to an interview but personal experience. If I remember there was a video on YouTube as well with him being asked about kemper, but wasn't referring to that.

    If it's not from an interview or video, I'm not sure what you were referring to. There's a link to an anecdotal story in my previous reply in which Tremonti supposedly praised the Kemper.


    Quote from Dimi84

    About axe -- yes many of the effects are the same. But there is still a difference between profiling a modeller (imho the "feel" of the axe is not as good as most of the amps I've experimented with) and the real set ups. While the issues described appear in axe profiles too I do think there's an even bigger difference when going from a "this is it" amp tone to its profile, to be more exact.

    Maybe there's a bigger difference, I don't know, but either way the sonic differences will be just as apparent in a sample (if you know what to listen for) on a good set of monitors or headphones regardless who profiled the amp or modeler, assuming you have clips of both, the real amp and profile. If you don't have a sample of the amp then there's no reference point with which to compare the profile, so in that situation yes, direct experience profiling the amp would be relevant.


    Quote from Dimi84

    I also do think sound correlates to feel. If something sounds the same and the latency is the same it will also feel the same. So, in a way, referring to one seems me as implying referring to other as well. What I'm saying is that small audio differences usually translate to bigger differences in feel (some more than others, there seem to be certain kinds of differences that matter more than others). An audio difference can seem "trivial" to me if I simply hear it -- But it has implications when it comes to "feel", often substantial ones.

    I understand, however there's no way to confer feeling via an audio clip or video, and that's the medium people have primarily used in this thread to demonstrate the differences we've all been discussing..

    I think this discussion is running in circles a bit :)


    I think both of you have valid points from your own individual experience and how you hear/feel things. I just don't think anything useful will come from the present discussion.


    I am very much looking forward to that/those videos, @Dimi84. It can only be of benefit to all of us. It seems like you have a very constructive approach to this whole thing.

    This is pretty interesting:


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    The Kemper seemed to like the Fredman technique a lot more than the others. Could be to do with the type of mic? I.e. Dynamic versus a combination of dynamic and ribbon.

    hi, here is a song demo made with the great free CCV rigs, tweaked on the fly while recording the demo , I also used KPA fxs ( chorus, delay, verb, transpose )


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    Still You think its "spot on"? :D


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    Stay Metal!

    Quote from sinmix

    Still You think its "spot on"? :D


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    Stay Metal!

    As usual, the differences we talk about.

    Quote from sinmix

    Still You think its "spot on"? :D




    Stay Metal!

    Still You think its "spot on"? :D

    Quote from Dimi84

    As usual, the differences we talk about.


    With all due respect, the example is bullshit.


    A) The video that Gzegorz ( @sinmix ) linked to is NOT the full, original uncut video. The full video is here:


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    B) The video was uploaded in March 2012, and was recorded by Guitarist/Music Radar shortly before the official launch of the Kemper Profiler. It was operating on the very first firmware.


    C) The creators of the video acknowledge, right in the video, that the did not REFINE the profiles.


    This is a BAD example...and one of the worst A/B comparison tests of the Kemper I have seen on YouTube.

    I know the original video.


    They could probably have gotten closer had they refined.


    Would there still be differences of similar character, enough to matter to me?


    Yes, most likely.


    So while it's a bad example, can still hear the same stuff as elsewhere. Differences can be masked, depending on one's playing, but they are there, are small as they are.


    And they are fairly consistent too.


    I'm not very interested in that subject though -- tests done, too much time on them, and I have my conclusions. People can conduct their own tests if they are interested; better that way.


    Fair enough, Dimi. You aren't convinced.


    However, I just wanted to set the record straight. The video was a poor demonstration. The producers did not Refine the profiles. The video was taken well before the introduction of KPA Firmware 2.6 and 3.0, which featured a major overhaul and improvement of the profiling algorithm (fixing a software flaw present from day one) as well as tweaks in refinement process.


    Cheers,
    John

    Quote from Tritium

    Fair enough, Dimi. You aren't convinced.


    However, I just wanted to set the record straight. The video was a poor demonstration. The producers did not Refine the profiles. The video was taken well before the introduction of KPA Firmware 2.6 and 3.0, which featured a major overhaul and improvement of the profiling algorithm (fixing a software flaw present from day one) as well as tweaks in refinement process.


    Cheers,
    John

    I agree, and it's good you pointed that out.


    I don't know how a big magazine can proceed with such tests without even taking the time to refine. You would think they'd spend at least some time with a product before reviewing like this.