Rig Manager 3.0 Editor

  • Yes, very likely; however, the big difference being that Kemper will actually MAKE money when they release the Kone/Kabinet while the editor is simply work and time for Kemper...... now, really, there is an impetus for the editor ..... but it ISN'T our whining.

    The editor will be a STRONG selling point for Kemper... the prospect of future dollars is their incentive, it has nothing to do with giving something to us for free.

  • The editor will be a STRONG selling point for Kemper... the prospect of future dollars is their incentive, it has nothing to do with giving something to us for free.

    Agreed, but unlike other companies, they don't just release new products that includes these upgrades, forcing you to buy a new unit. This will be available for all KPA's

  • Agreed, but unlike other companies, they don't just release new products that includes these upgrades, forcing you to buy a new unit. This will be available for all KPA's

    To be fair, in this industry it's the norm to release upgrades and upsells to existing hardware. It adds value to your existing product and also keeps your consumer base happy and engaged. They are the most likely to continue investing when you eventually have new hardware or complementing products. If a company has shown to give added value to a product you invested in, it's easier and less expensive to keep you as a customer rather than trying to procure new ones.

  • To be fair, in this industry it's the norm to release upgrades and upsells to existing hardware. It adds value to your existing product and also keeps your consumer base happy and engaged. They are the most likely to continue investing when you eventually have new hardware or complementing products. If a company has shown to give added value to a product you invested in, it's easier and less expensive to keep you as a customer rather than trying to procure new ones.

    To be fair, that isn't what empirical evidence shows. While it is true that "other companies" (btw, there are really only 2 we are talking about that play in this range of the market competitively) do updates, they only do so for a relatively short amount of time. They then require their users to purchase a new unit for new features beyond the last update.


    Lets take Fractal and their "Axe" product line:


    Standard: 2006.
    Ultra: 2008.
    II: 2011.
    II XL: 2014.

    III: 2018


    .... so an average of every 3 years you could count on your investment being devalued by the next generation hardware being released.


    Considering the fact that the Fractal product is around 50% more expensive than the Kemper, and the support of the Kemper is looking like it will stretch 3 generations of the Fractal product, the Kemper offers a value nearly 5 times that of the Fractal product.... and that is just math.


    Meanwhile, a used Kemper purchased 7 years ago for ~ 2K can be sold for $1400-1600 used today. Not bad for a 7 year old piece of gear eh?


    How about a 7 year old Axe?. Hmmm. Let's see .... that would be the venerable AxeII (not XL). I would be shocked if they even go for half of their original price.... for that matter, I would be surprised if you could sell one for 1K.


    I also don't buy into the line that Kemper is going to sell so many more KPA's because a company written editor comes out. There has been a full featured editor for the KPA for a couple of years now. I don't see the Kemper version of the editor doing much for sales .... IMHO of course.


    Kemper Kone? Yep. That will definitely increase sales. Kemper Stage? Yep. Tons of sales.


    To be honest, I can see Kemper staying with (and providing updates to) the current piece of hardware for the next 4 years or more. They just released the Stage form factor. Now all new updates will apply across 3 different hardware form factors. A few better stomps, and some tweaks here and there and it is easy to see the KPA in its existing form lasting for years to come. Sure.... a Kemper branded, full featured editor ..... with performance GUI editing will be a nice addition.

  • OneEng1 , off topic, but that line of reasoning is pretty cherry picked for a number of reasons.

    • Your summary failed to account for frequency of updates and number of updated features. Compared to some other competing devices (and it aint just 2...), the frequency of Kemper updates isn't blowing anyone away. In fact, it lags behind many others. We can of course argue the "quality" of those other updates, but it's beside the point here if I'm to strictly interpret your reasoning.
    • Old versions of hardware still work, and the only "value" that matters is to that of the player. If you still use hardware that is no longer supported with firmware updates, it works no less for you than it did before. If we were to take the common sentiment expressed on the forum that people don't need new features because they bought the Kemper "as-is", I don't see why that's suddenly an exception.
    • Are users angry about updated hardware, or excited about newer features and possibilities? I think we know the answer.
    • Nobody has to buy new hardware if the old hardware still works for them.
    • "Value" when discussing other devices here is often meant solely in a market sense. If you're happy as a clam and never plan to sell your device, I don't see the need for such a preoccupation. It seems to be used more or less to try and demonstrate Kemper's superiority over others.

    I also don't buy into the line that Kemper is going to sell so many more KPA's because a company written editor comes out. There has been a full featured editor for the KPA for a couple of years now. I don't see the Kemper version of the editor doing much for sales .... IMHO of course.

    As I pointed out before, the more value Kemper adds to the device, which is adding features people need and ask for, the happier their consumer base will be and will continue to invest in Kemper products in the future. That's a more economical sales approach because it keeps existing customers. New customers are far more expensive to procure.

  • The Kone isn't software and the editor sure isn't hardware. To me They can't be compared as what's worth more to a buyer later on because it is an apples/oranges comparison for one, and their individual worth iS in the eye of the beholder. Both together however does help the bottom line price wise, and that's a good thing.

    If you use FRFR the benefit of a merged profile is that the cabinet is totally separated in the profile.


    For my edification only... :D Kemper/Helix user

  • The Kone isn't software and the editor sure isn't hardware. To me They can't be compared as what's worth more to a buyer later on because it is an apples/oranges comparison for one, and their individual worth iS in the eye of the beholder. Both together however does help the bottom line price wise, and that's a good thing.

    Not sure to which point you were responding, but I'd just add that software or hardware, current and happy customers are more willing to invest in either. In that way I do think there is a correlation for sure, not to mention the Kone requires software to tap into the speaker modeling, and should hopefully be selectable within any editor.

  • I wonder what the editor UI is like in bright and dim lighting conditions.

    A light-text-on-dark-background "skin" was under consideration, being worked on or already implemented when I asked about it a while back, Grant.


    I've seen no mention of it anywhere since, so who knows, maybe I dreamed it?

    What baffles me is why they don't at least release a beta for testers to try and to report any bugs and provide feedback. It's disappointing that the editor isn't out yet.

    I'd be very-surprised if this hasn't been done, mate; it just makes sense.

  • While it is true that "other companies" (btw, there are really only 2 we are talking about that play in this range of the market competitively) do updates, they only do so for a relatively short amount of time.

    The original Axe-Fx II is still being updated, actually. Despite the unit being discontinued last year, Fractal Audio released a new update for it on the 18th.

    II: 2011.
    II XL: 2014.

    III: 2018


    .... so an average of every 3 years you could count on your investment being devalued by the next generation hardware being released.

    Many Axe-Fx II users never buy a newer Axe-Fx II model because all Axe-Fx II models are compatible. They're all updated to the same firmware simultaneously, so if one model gets a new firmware feature, they all get it.


    Considering the fact that the Fractal product is around 50% more expensive than the Kemper, and the support of the Kemper is looking like it will stretch 3 generations of the Fractal product, the Kemper offers a value nearly 5 times that of the Fractal product.... and that is just math.

    Okay, though I'd argue the Axe-Fx II is far more versatile and costs less than a new Kemper, while the Axe-Fx III retails for a bit less than what I paid for my Axe-Fx II (new) and is an even more flexible and feature rich unit than the II. There's really no comparison between the feature set of the III vs. the Kemper. The III is on a whole different level, and is a bargain at the asking price, in my opinion.


    I also don't buy into the line that Kemper is going to sell so many more KPA's because a company written editor comes out. There has been a full featured editor for the KPA for a couple of years now. I don't see the Kemper version of the editor doing much for sales .... IMHO of course.

    A lot of people aren't going to use a third party editor because 1) it's third party and 2) it's MIDI only 3) not officially supported. An official editor will certainly add value to the unit and thus incentivize future purchases, in my opinion.

  • All this might be true, except, it doesn’t sound as good. The 2, the 2s max or whatever it was, the 3 or when they bring out the 3 Max Pro will still lack behind the core sound of the Kemper because it models, whereas the Kemper profiles. :)

  • All this might be true, except, it doesn’t sound as good.

    I own both and disagree. Do you (or have you) own(ed) any of the Axe-Fx models? I own the Kemper and have owned the Axe-Fx II(and now the III). I've personally posted numerous blind tests in which I captured the cab section of the Kemper using the Axe-Fx's built-in IR capture utility and compared Axe-Fx amp models to their Kemper profile equivalents using the same cab and the results were made to sound identical. In fact, in some cases I preferred the Axe-Fx II amp models specifically because they didn't exhibit any of the high end raspiness inherent in some Kemper profiles, though one of the advantages of owning a Kemper vs. Axe-Fx (aside from the ability to profile real amps) is having access to amps that aren't otherwise modeled in the Axe-Fx, though the Axe-Fx's Tone Matching feature often does an excellent job of replicating many of them.

  • I own both and disagree. Do you (or have you) own(ed) any of the Axe-Fx models? I own the Kemper and have owned the Axe-Fx II(and now the III). I've personally posted numerous blind tests in which I captured the cab section of the Kemper using the Axe-Fx's built-in IR capture utility and compared Axe-Fx amp models to their Kemper profile equivalents using the same cab and the results were made to sound identical. In fact, in some cases I preferred the Axe-Fx II amp models specifically because they didn't exhibit any of the high end raspiness inherent in some Kemper profiles, though one of the advantages of owning a Kemper vs. Axe-Fx (aside from the ability to profile real amps) is having access to amps that aren't otherwise modeled in the Axe-Fx, though the Axe-Fx's Tone Matching feature often does an excellent job of replicating many of them.

    I have owned a Helix, AX8 and the Kemper. Not only does the Kemper sound better than the others, it also FEELS better; it's a lot more responsive and rich with it's harmonics (IMO).


    To each their own though. I was thinking of getting an FX3, but then remembered how vile and caustic the official forums are, as well as Cliff's questionable business ethics.


    Anyway, back on track - I'm assuming there's no editor today :(