Coincidentally.... I think I'm done with FRFR

  • I have been using FR from the beginning...not because I wanted to. I don't like tweeters with a guitar signal. I tried using a cabinet, but the speaker is 1/2 your tone. When studio profiles were created using different speakers, I had to tweak every one to match the speaker I was using.

    I gave up as it was more authentic using the FR cab in spite of the tweeter.


    I'm patiently waiting for the Kone to be released so I can hear how it's supposed to be and retire my K10.

    The key to everything is patience.
    You get the chicken by hatching the egg, not by smashing it.
    -- Arnold H. Glasow


    If it doesn't produce results, don't do it.

    -- Me

  • I have been using FR from the beginning...not because I wanted to. I don't like tweeters with a guitar signal. I tried using a cabinet, but the speaker is 1/2 your tone. When studio profiles were created using different speakers, I had to tweak every one to match the speaker I was using.

    I gave up as it was more authentic using the FR cab in spite of the tweeter.


    I'm patiently waiting for the Kone to be released so I can hear how it's supposed to be and retire my K10.

    It intrigues me why you say you hate the tweeter, maybe you should play with low pass filter in the stack, that way you technically can prevent the tweeter from even reproducing any sound above the midrange from the woofer.

  • It intrigues me why you say you hate the tweeter, maybe you should play with low pass filter in the stack, that way you technically can prevent the tweeter from even reproducing any sound above the midrange from the woofer.

    It's too Hi-Fi sounding and doesn't sound natural.

    The key to everything is patience.
    You get the chicken by hatching the egg, not by smashing it.
    -- Arnold H. Glasow


    If it doesn't produce results, don't do it.

    -- Me

  • I just stumbled across this thread while searching for something else. It remarkably resembles my most recent realization as well. Just can't get along with FRFR speakers anymore. Been a Kemper fanboy for over 3 years now and like you I've tried quite a few FRFRs. Some cheap some expensive (Headrush, Atomic, Xitone, Mission Engineering). Always felt like I was lacking. While I DO agree that you're losing a bit of that "Difference" factor when checking out different profiles when the cabs are included, I just can't get past how perfect and tight and realistic things sound with my Mesa 2x12 cab in comparison. It sucks. I don't WANT it to be this way. It just is.


    I will say that in one of my tribute bands, everyone goes in ear (Except me as I HATE them with a passion) and we have very low stage volume. In THAT band I use my Headrush 108 up front and it does the trick just fine. For everything else, I'm back to being old school with a Cab behind me. I still go direct to FoH but I just PLAY better when I've got that feel pulsating behind me!

  • I just stumbled across this thread while searching for something else. It remarkably resembles my most recent realization as well. Just can't get along with FRFR speakers anymore. Been a Kemper fanboy for over 3 years now and like you I've tried quite a few FRFRs. Some cheap some expensive (Headrush, Atomic, Xitone, Mission Engineering). Always felt like I was lacking. While I DO agree that you're losing a bit of that "Difference" factor when checking out different profiles when the cabs are included, I just can't get past how perfect and tight and realistic things sound with my Mesa 2x12 cab in comparison. It sucks. I don't WANT it to be this way. It just is.


    I will say that in one of my tribute bands, everyone goes in ear (Except me as I HATE them with a passion) and we have very low stage volume. In THAT band I use my Headrush 108 up front and it does the trick just fine. For everything else, I'm back to being old school with a Cab behind me. I still go direct to FoH but I just PLAY better when I've got that feel pulsating behind me!

    Hey it took me 8 years to come to this conclusion.

    You, Sir, are a fast learner. :):thumbup:

  • The wonderful thing about the Kabinet is that it can be an FRFR solution as well.


    I think that's something to see, how it will compare to an Atomic CLR or a Matrix NL12 or whatever.


    After all, you will still only get the maximum difference between various profiles using FRFR.


    You could, of course, decide to use imprints for a V30 or Jensen or whatever, that is personal preference. At the same time, feed the FOH with the studio profile, so that's great.


    But it remains to be seen how accurate the Kabinet will be when deployed in a 2x12 or 4x12 configuration. After all, cabinet design must play a role in accuracy of the imprint.


    After all, a 1x12" speaker modelling a 1x12" speaker is never going to sound like a full blown 4x12".


    I had come to the conclusion that power amp through real guitar speaker is much better than FRFR much earlier than Ingolf though!


    Have been raving about the Kemper through a Mesa Boogie Thiele with an EVM12L for some time now.


    FWIW, the EVM12L is one of the speakers modelled as an imprint :love:

  • Quote

    I had come to the conclusion that power amp through real guitar speaker is much better than FRFR much earlier than Ingolf though!

    I thought of this back in 1942, in Brazil... :D

    If you use FRFR the benefit of a merged profile is that the cabinet is totally separated in the profile.


    For my edification only... :D Kemper/Helix user

  • well, if you think FRFR is not good and a real cab is better, then the conclusion is: the profiler's profiled cabs are illusions. Not?

    Nope.

    I never said I thought FRFR cabs are not good. Nor are the Kemper cabs illusions. I got great results for nearly a decade.

    But: The difference is that Kemper cabs are perfect reproductions of a cab, but as the cab is an active integral part of the signal chain (like the guitar) it is much more immediate to play through a conventional cab and leave the Kemper cabs for FOH.

    There is more fun in it for the player, and sometimes this can make a difference.

  • Quote

    But: The difference is that Kemper cabs are perfect reproductions of a cab, but as the cab is an active integral part of the signal chain (like the guitar) it is much more immediate to play through a conventional cab and leave the Kemper cabs for FOH.

    It's a matter of choice, and you have chosen yours, for now. ;)


    I may follow suite, and then again I make just play an acoustic with neither.


    What ever floats yer boat and makes it a happy day :) is the point.

    If you use FRFR the benefit of a merged profile is that the cabinet is totally separated in the profile.


    For my edification only... :D Kemper/Helix user

  • Whenever I play a powered KPA via a guitar cab I think "yeah, this sounds nice" but I always have the feeling that differences between amps (e.g. a Marshall JCM profile and a Boogie Recti) get lost. Every amp profile sounds good but kind of similar. Not exactly the same, but somehow like they are loosing their character. I don't have better words to describe this.

    For a gig this doesn't matter to me since i only need the guitar signal for monitoring and i know that the PA sound (of the full profile) will be great.
    For me the KPA is a tool for recording and plaing gigs. But for rehearsing with a band or for playing at home there is nothing that can beat a real amp and cab.

    Just my thoughts.

  • Whenever I play a powered KPA via a guitar cab I think "yeah, this sounds nice" but I always have the feeling that differences between amps (e.g. a Marshall JCM profile and a Boogie Recti) get lost. Every amp profile sounds good but kind of similar. Not exactly the same, but somehow like they are loosing their character. I don't have better words to describe this.


    I think that the influence on the sound of a guitar cabinet is sometimes a bit underrated, especially when other outside factors like position of the cab in the room and position of the player to the cab in the room comes into place.

    As my Yamaha DXR12 got stolen on tour (together with many other stuff) I thought about replacing it with another fullrange box. But lately I've used the fullrange only as a backup for our inear and for additional cab interaction, which works great by the way in my opinion. But to be honest it's just another thing I have to transport and to take care of. So I have decided to stay with my inear only for the next touring season. I've struggled a long time with inear systems but since I got a good sounding inear with custom fit and we do the mix by ourselves it's so fantastic. I would never ever let any tech try to guess a mix that I like on my ears again. And for me, it has to sound full with bass and so on. Those singers inears which are made to feature the voice frequencies with no bass in it are so not fun to play guitar with. But that's my personal taste. :)

    But I will definitely try the Kemper Kone, perhaps this is a nice backup together with a small external poweramp. At home I also have my amps and cabinets which I love and play.

  • Every amp profile sounds good but kind of similar. Not exactly the same, but somehow like they are loosing their character.

    This also is my impression when profiles

    - have too much gain

    - distortion is used.


    Turning down the volume of the guitar and turning distortion off, profiles begin to shine and comparing different profiles show their real souls.


    That said, I'm still searching and tweaking different profiles to get a good clean but crunchy tone at high volume output.

    And I'm not sure if this is a problem with the Headrush FRFR box I have. Connecting the Kemper to a clean Fender (Super Champ XD) with neutral EQ shows not really a difference.

  • @ CarloLf: That might be true. But i mainly play music with a certain degree of distortion/saturation. So that's my reality as a guitar player.

    I do love my KPA, though ;) I hope my post above is not interpreted as a KPA bashing.

    I dont know how distortion heavy is your rig, but I believe most people have not tried 10 different amps with the same cabinets, they end up sounding like you describe, clean or distorted. Most of us have 3 or 4 amps, and maybe 2 or 3 cabinets, so we never get to compare, but if you try 10 amps with the same cabinet, you will get the same feeling of "sameness" as with the Kemper.


    I see it as this, the amp is like a great piece of ham or a sausage, there are a ton of variety, but normally is eaten with a bread, if you use the same kind of bread, it will tast like the same kind of sandwich. Bread is an important part of the sandwich, so it will definitely affect the overall flavour, but it will imprint that same nutty dryness on any meat you put on it.