rig manager replaces profiles

  • So i got into using the rig manager and i was using it to dial in my tones and everything, and when i went to save a profile and switch to a new one
    it just replaced the old one with the new one
    im sure i hit store profile, waited, then switched over
    but its extremely annoying and i dont know what is causing it or how to fix it

    X(;( i ended up loosing my favorite purchased profile i owned because it just .... deleted it and replaced the slot with an exact copy of a different profile

  • It shouldn’t do that. It hasn’t ever done it to me as far as I can remember.


    One thing that does happen though (which drives me crazy) is that when you save a new profile it automatically goes to the bottom of the list rather than showing next to the rig you were working on. So it is often not obvious if it has saved correctly unless you reorder the list or scroll right to the bottom. The other annoying thing is that both rigs have the same name and the only way to tell them apart is to compare the dates.


    If you don’t now have two rigs with same name the most likely cause is use error. His usually the root of all my problems unfortunately.


    Two top tips which you might find helpful for the future.

    • When buying profile packs save a copy in a folder on your hard drive as well as importing into rig manager. This way you alway have a copy of the original rigs which you can return to at any time.
    • Make regular backups of RM. This way you can recover any rigs (including your own adjustments), performances and presets. You can recover a full backup or individual rigs as required.
  • Be clear, what the object in focus is.


    A "Store Profile" command doesn't exist, The store options in Rig Manager either relate to the Rig currently loaded while the PROFILER resides in Browser Mode. Or the store relates to a Performance currently loaded, while the PROFILER is in Performance Mode. Loaded Rigs or Performances are marked by a headphones symbol in Rig Manager.


    You can focus objects in the upper list via single click without loading these (no headphones icon) and for example change tags. Such changes take immediate effect. The editor are at the bottom including its store options always relates to the loaded object. You load Rig or Performances via double click.

  • Burkhard I think the OP was referring to this but maybe just didn't use the right terminology. There are clearly 3 options to store in Browser Mode


    1. Store as New
    2. Store Rig in Profiler
    3. Replace Rig


    The point you made about "focus" is very relevant. The single biggest Rig Manager issue/complaint that seems to appear in the forum is about RM being unpredictable/unreliable/flaky when saving performances. Many people say they will no longer use RM because it is just so unpredictable. I think that in the vast majority of these cases the issue is user error related to focus and store options.


    This would seem like an obvious candidate for a Kemper Video Tutorial which shows how to create performances (in step by step detail) and highlights the most common mistakes that users (including myself) often make.


    I have just rechecked the video list and there are a number of new videos since the last time I looked. Maybe new videos should be included in the Kemper announcements thread in the forum so that members are notified when new videos are uploaded. I would definitely appreciate that :thumbup:

  • Sometimes I get a similar thing.


    I save a profile from a local folder into the profiler with RM and it erase/duplicate a random one.


    So scary.


    I have to turn off rig manager, unplug the Stage, reboot the stage to get it back…

  • I used to have trouble with that too but it turned out to be my fault. In my case it was caused by the Focus priorities that Burkhard mentioned above. Also whether the KPA chickenhead knob is in Browser or Performance position can affect behaviour.


    When Saving to MyProfiler the Rig/Performance gets saved to the last selected Position #. So for example, if the last rig loaded on my KPA was Position #10 but the highlighted rig that I wanted to store to was an empty slot #20 (highlighted but not actually loaded) then when I stored to MyProfiler it would save to position #10 instead of #20. This is actually intended behaviour but as with many things Kemper related it isn’t immediately obvious how this works. Those guys march to their own tune which is often out of step with the rest of the world. However, that is probably why they are also able to come up with so many genius level ideas 😎


    This is why i think Kemper should do a detailed “how to save Rigs and Performances” video as many people are unaware of this process.




    EDIT:


    Actually, I have just tried tested this again as it is a long time since I did any specific testing. It turns out that I was wrong about Browser Mode. If you save a rig to MyProfiler it simply gets added to the end of the list so no danger of over writing anything.


    It does perform as described in Performance mode. You always save to the last profile actually loaded not the one currently highlighted. The store button does tell you which Performance # you are about to save to but you need to actually double check this is the performance you want to change before proceeding.


    Where things get a bit more confusing is when you think you are saving rigs to MyProfiler but the chicken head knob is set to Performance Mode. In this case you aren't saving a Rig to MyProfiler but are actually overwriting the rig in the last selected slot of the last selected performance =O It is easy to see why users sometimes think the Kemper/RM are doing random things but it is actually intended behaviour.

  • Keep in mind, that the save buttons in Rig Manager and the whole Editor portion at the bottom always relate to the Rig/Performance that you see displayed on the PROFILER screen.


    The picture above shows a simple case: Rig "69' Vibe Reflex VB 2" is loaded (headphone icon) and it's edited (line in red color). The PROFILER must be connected, reside in Browser Mode, and its display shows the same Rig with an "E" for edited. The Editor at the bottom (signal chain, knobs and save functions) refer to the same Rig.


    Here is a similar example with Rig "CK Rotary Speaker" in focus.



    However, there could be a second layer. This picture shows Rig "Alright" being selected via single click (green line). The tags on the right hand side relate to "Alright". I could edit these tags and the changes would be effective as soon as I press Enter. Look at the headphones symbol. Rig CK Rotary Speaker is still loaded! The signal chain and whole Editor part still relate to "CK Rotary Speaker" and so do the save buttons. You mgith think, you save the Rig "Alright", but you effectively save "CK Rotary Speaker"!



    I could even select multiple Rigs via single click. You nsee multiple green lines. This is meaningful to edit a tag of multiple Rigs in one go. However, still Rig "CK Rotary Speaker" is loaded.



    This example is still relatively simple as both layers reside in the same location. However, it's possible to load a Rig "CK Rotary Speaker" in MyProfiler and then move to a different location, select Rigs via single click and edit their tags. You might loose sight of the Rig currently loaded and the fact that the lower editor part including its save buttons still relates to "CK Rotary Speaker".



    Having this said, there is value in each of these features. So, it'S not obvious how to simplify things without losing valuable functionality.

  • I also have this prblem and it's quite random.

    I also got used to backup all my performances because suddenly they can get corrupted by having another rig copied inside automatically. This happens without me saving anything.

    Switching the Kemper OFF and ON does not help.

  • I would really like to demonstrate but it occurs randomly and I did not find a way to reproduce it. I always work with my Kemper connected to my Mac computer using Rig Manager and this problem happens about once a month. I always work in Performance Mode, and usually one Rig in the Performance is then overwritten with another Rig, no way to undo it.

  • I am afraid this is extremaly "sophisticated" & complicated. I am quite old guy (67) and have spent whole my business live in IT, but even if I am extremally carefull, errors happen from time to time and often I loose all my edits :-( Only way how to minimize loss of edits is to make backups every 5 minutes, which is of course nonsense. And NO, I can not replicate it, because it happens erratically! We have saying in Czech - don't try to shoot too many birds with one bullet. I am afraid that that is axactly what Kemper (company) is trying to do with RM :-( Sometimes less is more! I am afraid, that the only way how to improve bad reputation of RM is to rewrite it from the scratch. Basic functionality: loading, editing & saving rigs/performances must be 200% reliable! Last but not least: nothing is documented anywhere!! The "newest" rig manager manual is more than 2,5 years old!! It is completely useless!

  • Just today I experienced another flavor of this issue. I set up morphing in slot 5 of one my performance using RM. Hit Store in performance #23 in RM - everything was working and life was good. I shut KPA down for the night (RM is constantly on my computer - even during the night, I don't turn off computer). Today I turned on KPA and noticed that my morphing settings were gone - not saved!


    I set them up again using Stage itself and so far so good.


    Similarly to vjelen, I consider myself quite tech-savy, yet this intricate interplay of RM and KPA catches me off-guard sometimes and every now and then I do experience minor data-loss. I tend to only use RM for browsing since my level of trust in RM doing the right thing in read/write scenarios is pretty low at the moment. You might blame user for not understanding how things work - but from my perspective if UI is asked to store something and it doesn't do it reliably - that's is not user's fault - no matter what. RM is the only UI which manages to screw over my data.


    And I really don't want to reboot KPA after every save to make sure that everything was persisted as it should.

  • This is all very true and with enough education and attention to detail when using RM, users like myself can generally get things to work reliably. I am aware of all the points you made but it has taken me a long time to master them and understand the multiple levels. It requires a lot of care and multiple checks before doing anything to make sure I haven’t done anything wrong. This makes me scared to use RM as it is too easy to make a mistake and screw things up. I know that the problem is almost always user error but if users are regularly making errors (as many in this form report they are) then the workflow needs to be simplified to stop this.


    I pretty much use RM in Browser Mode all the time to browse and audition rigs. I rarely bother saving things because of the convoluted workflow and fear of mistakes.


    I know the value in each of the features and I wouldn’t like to lose any of them (in fact I think further bulk editing functionality would be welcome) but I do think a better fool proof workflow would help users have a more reliable and confidence inspiring experience.

  • Having this said, there is value in each of these features. So, it'S not obvious how to simplify things without losing valuable functionality.

    If Kemper were to add a "Save As" as you find in just about all programs, it seems the problem could be solved.


    If you just edit tags as you described, no change. If you just Save as the current Rig Manager method, no change. But if you choose Save As you should then be prompted to select a location (profiler/Local Library or some folder beneath, or maybe even a disk file, like an export) and a Rig Name (probably solving another long requested problem to help avoid duplicating names). It adds an extra step when you want it, but there should be no longer be any question where the current edit is then saved.


    **To expand on that a bit - we should also be able to select a Performance (Profiler or Local Library) and a slot in that Performance as a destination for a Save As. That could eliminate some of the Copy/Paste confusion, or the need to have two windows open for drag drop.


    Seems a bit friendlier solution than suggesting we be more careful.

  • I don't understand your suggestion and what you think is missing.


    For the one object that is loaded (displayed on front panel and marked by headphones icon in the list) you have the choice to

    - Store, which is a replace

    - Store in Local Library, which keeps the ooriginal and stores a new item at the highest level of the Local Libary from where you could move it to any location.

    - Duplicate, which is a Store As with a predefined name at the same location as the original - it just adds "copy" to the Rig Name, which you could modify at any time.

    Which problem would a Store As solve?


    For the objects which are selected by single click, there is no store menu at all. How would a Store As work, if you select multiple objects? You can compare this with the file manager of your PC. You can rename any file and when you press Enter, it's done. There is no Store As. To move files from one location to another, you select these and then copy&paste or drag&drop. Same in Rig Manager.


    Perhaps it helps to look at the Rig Manager list area at the top as a PC file manager. Here you can select, move and to some extent edit multiple objects at a time even without an application. No store menu. No PROFILER needed for this.

    And the Editor area with the store buttons is an application like Word. You load one object at a time. Here you do deeper edits. And you have a store menu. This is only available while a PROFILER is connected and the mode that matches the object: Browser Mode for Rig load, Performance Mode for Performance load.

  • .... and what you think is missing ...

    1st of all VALID DOCUMENTATION FOR RM IS MISSING!! Again 2,5 year old manual is completely out if date. From time to time you disclose some information how to work with RM but that's not normal. Or do you really want us to spent hours searching forum when we need basic information how some particular function is implemented? Documentation of the current RM status is definitely very 1st step that has to be done. And I am afraid that the 2nd step is substantial redesign! I am realy sorry to say so but the quality conflict between great Profiler and poor RM is for me obvious :( But I stop complaining about RM for now, because I did several attempts to point out biggest RM issues but with no success so far. RM is by far the weakest part of the Kemper ecosystem!!!

    Thank you!

  • 1st of all VALID DOCUMENTATION FOR RM IS MISSING!!

    We have a great video on Rig Manager. Did you watch it?



    In all fairness, the manual is not the right medium to explain such an application. And even though it's 2.5 years old it is still valid. But the video does a much better job.

  • We have a great video on Rig Manager. Did you watch it?



    In all fairness, the manual is not the right medium to explain such an application. And even though it's 2.5 years old it is still valid. But the video does a much better job.

    I didn't want to spend more time on this subject, because I see that Kemper team feels that they did perfectly everything related to RM and all problems are only because users are not using it correctly. That is of course wrong! Re "manual": let me ask you simple question, why 100% of HW and SW companies are writing manuals when "... the manual is not right medium to explain such an application ....". Why are you then producing Main Manual when it is not "right medium"??? Maybe few more videos would be enough? I can understand resources problems, writing GOOD manual is quite time consuming and resources demanding task, but I do not accept that it is not right medium to explain how sw application works. But I really stop for now, unless I will feel more realistic approach on RM from Kemper team. Otherwise it is waste of time for me, because I can not change anything. I just wanted to share my view on this with other users.

    Have a good day!