Atomic CLR vs. Matrix Q 12a vs. Camper 112 CX

    My setup probably isn't ideal. My KPA rigs have an average Volume around 5.0 and the Main Output is at 6.0. I feed the KPA Main Output into the CLR's 1st input set at ~1:00. I feed my TC Helicon Voicelive Play into the CLR's 2nd input dimed. And the CLR's mix volume is at ~3:00. If I didn't have to balance my vocal and guitar signals I'm guessing my guitar gain staging would look different.

    Hi guys,


    we have tested the "test CX" again in our laboratory because it was said the level was too low. It has been suggested by the testers that the power amp should be re designed. It was said that the CX was "ridiculously quiet" and it "NEVER EVER can dream of keeping up with a moderate drummer".


    If a product was beaten down like that, I think it is only fair to give the manufacture an opportunity to express his point of view.


    This is what I am going to do here knowing, that some of you might take it as a reaction of a "bad looser".


    We tested the CX with several profiles at the KPAs main out at -15dB as the testers did.


    Result : Loud


    It was said : "You can clearly notice we turned down in that part of the video as the cam mic captures a lot mor of Günter's string attack".


    We found that hard to believe.


    However, in our opinion it does not make sense at all to connect an active FRFR speaker system to the KPAs main out. The main out should go to the FoH and should be independent from the level the guitarist needs on stage.
    The monitor out is the right output to connect a monitor box to. Its level can be adjusted independently from the FoH and it provides a higher signal level for the monitor to begin with.


    The CX connected to the monitor out of the KPA is as loud as a 1x12" cabinet with a 260W speaker can be. We had equipment falling off the shelf's in our laboratory. Even Motörheads Mickey D. would have had trouble to make himself heard.
    We could even manage to "overpower" the CX with the KPA and have the power amplifier going into protection mode and cut off. Remember, we are talking 200W rms !


    Conclusion :


    As Jay said :


    "And the result here is inconclusive anyway: all three speakers were declared equivalent, with the qualifier that one of them - which in all probability simply has a prudent amount of voltage gain - is not as "loud" (voltage gain and potential loudness are often confused) as the others."


    Thank you Jay!



    Regards!
    Tilman

    Quote from Tilman

    It was said : "You can clearly notice we turned down in that part of the video as the cam mic captures a lot mor of Günter's string attack".


    We found that hard to believe.


    ....The monitor out is the right output to connect a monitor box to. Its level can be adjusted independently from the FoH and it provides a higher signal level for the monitor to begin with.

    1) Even if you don't believe it, what we said is the truth, the volume-knob of the Q12's had to be turned down a lot to be on the same volume-level.


    2) In my studio I tested Q12a and CX112 only on the monitor out and the Q12a was much louder. Apart from this: if you want to play the KPA stereo, the FRFR-cabs should have enough power on the line outs, too.


    Maybe the best would be to do more detailed test (CLR vs. Q12a vs. CX112) by yourself and release a video here.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    first name: Guenter / family name: Haas / www.guenterhaas.de

    I found these tests cool . But we cant forget about the subjectivity on the analisis . The sound capture ( i imagine it was the mic of the cam , as the camara direction changed the sound changed as well ) .


    What i would like , would be a similar test of such equipaments in a treated room , and with a flat mic on a dead point, and with all cabs with the same SPL . I guess that would be more objective for a more accurate analisys, nevertheless i like how the matrix and the CLR sounds , no ideia what i would choose to buy , but thinking they are too expensive , rcf or alto might me a better goal to me .


    Thanks for the analysis .,


    cheers

    I played the Camper CX yesterday on monitor and main out. Even on the main out I was able to drive the amplifier of the CX until the limiting. No problem at all. And it was very loud. I think the CLR and the Q12a have a preamp in front of the amplifier. If you turn the volume to the right, the amplifier starts to limit earlier, while the CX is working normally - all amps driven at the same input level coming from the KPA.

    Quote from Tone

    I found these tests cool . But we cant forget about the subjectivity on the analisis . The sound capture ( i imagine it was the mic of the cam , as the camara direction changed the sound changed as well ) .


    What i would like , would be a similar test of such equipaments in a treated room , and with a flat mic on a dead point, and with all cabs with the same SPL . I guess that would be more objective for a more accurate analisys, nevertheless i like how the matrix and the CLR sounds , no ideia what i would choose to buy , but thinking they are too expensive , rcf or alto might me a better goal to me .


    IMO some people forgets that the video only complements the review and shows how the did the test. The real review is written in the first post of this thread and is based in their experience. After months of reading both Guenterhaas and Ingolf in this forum and listening to some of their demos, their opinion is really useful to me.

    To Marco & Tilman!


    Please be assured once again that we didn't have and still don't have the slightest interest at all in dissing the CX or cast a bad light on the CX.
    Instead I sincerely wish you both the BEST OF LUCK with the whole Camper Line!


    And I still try to get my head around why the CX was so much quieter vs. the Q12a and the CLR.
    Is there the slightest possibilitiy for user error?
    Actually I don't believe this as Günter had pre- tested the unit at home in his studio and also found it very quiet.


    So: do you have an idea to troubleshoot this as I would really like to be constructive and revise my estimation (even by repeating the whole procedure)?


    Marco, if you assume that there is a preamp built into both Q12a and the CLR that bring them in loudness advantage in direct comparison it would be very important IMO to check this as, like I said, due to the very big difference it's not possible ATM to use the CX in a L/R scenario together with a Q12a or a CLR.


    Ingolf

    Quote from Gitarrenschlumpf

    I played the Camper CX yesterday on monitor and main out. Even on the main out I was able to drive the amplifier of the CX until the limiting. No problem at all. And it was very loud. I think the CLR and the Q12a have a preamp in front of the amplifier. If you turn the volume to the right, the amplifier starts to limit earlier, while the CX is working normally - all amps driven at the same input level coming from the KPA.

    Like we said, we didn't want to diss the CX112, we just noticed that the other cabs were louder at the same KPA-settings. "Very loud" or "loud enough" are very subjective expressions like our little shootout was subjective, too. I don't know if a preamp is responsible for the loudness-difference, you are just "thinking", it would be better to have some technical facts about this issue. Maybe somebody could help us here (Tilman?).


    I would say all 3 cabs are "loud enough" for nearly all occasions, every cab has pros and cons. This is a free and open forum and everybody can share his experiences with the KPA, we both did exactly that with absolutely no commercial background or personal resentments.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    first name: Guenter / family name: Haas / www.guenterhaas.de

    There is a fundamental misunderstanding of power amplifier operation that has affected the comparison here. In the interest of education - I teach these subjects from time to time - I will provide an explanation.


    There are two properties of a "power" amplifier (more properly called a "voltage controlled voltage source") that are important in this context: maximum power and voltage gain. These two parameters are independent of each other but are quite often confused.


    Voltage gain is the amount by which the input voltage is amplified to produce the output voltage. This value may be expressed as a ratio - e.g., 20 - or a log of the ratio - e.g., 26dB. This is the amount of amplification available with the amplifier level control set to its maximum. Differences in gain account for many mistaken conclusions - including the ones made in this comparison - about which amplifier is "louder." Contrary to widespread myth, more gain is not better. The optimum amount of voltage gain in a power amplifier - that which produces the greatest signal/noise performance - is just enough for the maximum output voltage of the device driving the amplifier's input to produce maximum power. The standard for professional gear was established by companies like Crown International during the 1970s and was 26dB of "gain" (alternatively stated, a voltage amplification factor of 20). With this amount of gain and the amplifier levels open, a Crown Macro Reference would be driven to full power (760 wpc @ 8 ohms) with an input signal of 3.9VRMS (+14dBu or +10VU). The CLR produces the same 26dB of gain with its master level set to maximum and its input level set to approximately 10:00. If you are driving it with a professional device, that is the highest you will ever need to set the input level. If that setting does not produce enough volume, then the best way to increase the volume is to increase the level from the device that is driving the CLR. The higher gain available from going beyond the 10:00 position was provided to enable one to use a consumer-level device (mp3 player, etc.) and still get maximum output. From the statements in this thread, it would appear that the Camper's gain is closer to the standard 26dB. That is more than enough for a device like the kpa to drive it to maximum output.


    Output power is the maximum power the amplifier can supply at a specified maximum distortion level. Identifying an amplifier's maximum output power - and, consequently, a powered monitor's maximum acoustic output - is a complex process that poses substantial risk to the load being driven (i.e., the speaker) by the amplifier. One thing is certain: the CLR was never driven to its maximum output level in this comparison. Had it been, the testers would have suffered temporary (at least) hearing loss, and the camera preamp would have been audibly overloaded. Not being familiar with the amplification in the other two speakers, I cannot be so certain of them, but it is highly probable that they too never approached their maximum volume capacities.


    In short, the conclusions about which speaker was "loudest" in this comparison are mistaken. Note that I make this statement even though it was my design that was judged "loudest." That may or may not be the case, but it was not established by anything in this comparison.


    Thank you, that is quite informative.
    Gain structuring on the CLR was not changed for this comparison of course, and done properly before according to the manual (i.e. LED not flashing red).
    What the manual doesn't reveal though are the approx. settings for pro-level or consumer-level gear that you present here. This would be useful information for the CLR manual IMO.
    Knowing that before would have lead to a dialing down of the CLR's input level to a certain amount.
    After all, the loudness factor in direct comparison may become a moot or irrelevant argument then.


    Thank you, Jay. THAT is the way to explain these things to other adults.

    PRS Singlecuts
    Kemper PowerHead/Remote



    Quote from skoczy

    When you turn the knob on KPA, you wake up the captured souls of tube amps living inside.

    Quote from Desiato

    Thank you, Jay. THAT is the way to explain these things to other adults.

    Coming from you, I'm not sure I see that as a compliment. Just to confirm: do you believe that publicly calling someone a "fanboy" and claiming that they are "in bed with the moderators" of another forum is an appropriate way to communicate with other adults?

    Quote from JayMitchell

    Coming from you, I'm not sure I see that as a compliment. Just to confirm: do you believe that publicly calling someone a "fanboy" and claiming that they are "in bed with the moderators" of another forum is an appropriate way to communicate with other adults?


    Wow, some people just can't take a compliment.

    PRS Singlecuts
    Kemper PowerHead/Remote



    Quote from skoczy

    When you turn the knob on KPA, you wake up the captured souls of tube amps living inside.

    and now at the end -- regardless how loud it was ---- how was the camper sounding????


    from what i hear in the video quite good!


    but it's a bit funny to try to judge that from a youtube video ...