DI rig profiling with cab unselected by default?

    Hi Folks,


    I have been reading around regarding DI profiling, placing a DI box between the amp and the speak to capture all except the speaker cabinet, and so far so good, the profiles are really good when using a Matrix GT1000FX poweramp direct from monitor out, the only thing is that the Cabinet light is on even tough is a DI profile (when u unselect it kemper try to take off what he thinks is the cab part... messing it up...), I have read around the wiki that there is a possibility of profiling with the cab unselected, so you can actually select one if needed for FOH while using none for the amp+cab or for recording into the DAW with cab emulation if wanted.


    Could anybody give me some tips for doing this?


    Thanks a lot!


    I have uploaded my first profile.


    a 5f1 handwired clon built by myself in breakup point with HBs.


    http://www.kemper-amps.com/api…iyEgRaW7dhO8DRiE3bB?.kipr



    hope you like it!


    Cheers,


    Jero

    Since there was no physical cab, Cabs have to be left On. The Profiler would otherwise try and remove something that was not there. When playing back the profile, Cabs on will let you hear exactly what was profiled. If you change profile's cab, you won't generally make a mistake bigger than swapping two cabs.


    :)

    The cabs that can be "swapped"... are they impulses converted to .kipr? Or are they virtually any profile, where the Kemper "assumes" the frequenses of the cab, so you can swap any cab from any profile? It's funny, cause I don't have as many cab options on my Kemper as I have profiles.

    The "problem" is when you swap the cabinet, the sound of the preamp is changed (removing the old unexisting cabinet).


    Take an impulse and convert it to a kipr file, and compare the sound of the DI (with the CAb ON) into a IR loader (and the original impulse) and the sound gotten by swapping the cabinet to the converted IR. The sound is quite different.
    I think a good feature should be to provide a way to createor to specify that the profiling is a preamp only, (or maybe a poweramp + cab only).

    Well, any time you swap a cab from any profile you change its sound, and by a great amount.


    OTOH, a DI profile is supposedly used with a real cab or power amp+cab, otherwise why taking the hassle?


    Rolexferrari: furthermore, you can of course import cabs, or save a cab from any rig if you like it (the cab) a lot :)

    I thought that you could actually select what you profiling when creating a new one...


    It shouldn't be difficult to implement something like this (which i think will be ace!)


    When creating a new profile and swapping between Kemper amp and Reference AMP.


    When selected the Kemper AMP use the Rig bottoms (Amp, EQ, Cab) to select what are you actually profiling.


    So in the case you want to profile DI, you basically unselect the CAB, leaving the EQ and AMP ON.


    So that particular profile would be good for using directly with poweramp/cabm but in case you want to use it with speakers, you can just basically select a cab over the profile (without kemper trying to guess the cab frequencies as there was no cab)

    As i wrote tho, the "error" you make by adding a cab to a DI profile is not different from the "error" you make when changing a cab in a traditional rig. IOW, when you swap cab in a profile, that amp will never sound as before.

    it seems simple what the OP is asking for, and I want to give it a big +1.


    But I think the terms "amp profile" and "cab profile" are misleading. To think they actually represent the distinct aspects of just amp and just cab is incorrect. I think they are better termed "compression/distortion characteristics profile" and "resonance profile", with EQ falling into both buckets (as each process necessarily affects freq domain). But of course that's just obnoxious and the amp/cab nomenclature is fairly accurate for what we typically hear out of real rigs.


    We already know that the cab profile captures more than just the sound of a particular cab/mic. There's the interaction between the cab and power amp. But I think technically the cab profile is capturing any kind of resonance from the rig, whether it comes from the cab, mic, or amp. Resonance isn't simply due to cab build, shape, speakers, and other mechanical issues, but also electrical. I would imagine a DI profile should have less resonance than a full rig with amp and mic'ed cab, but I have to imagine its still there and a strong part of the tone.

    Quote from viabcroce

    As i wrote tho, the "error" you make by adding a cab to a DI profile is not different from the "error" you make when changing a cab in a traditional rig. IOW, when you swap cab in a profile, that amp will never sound as before.

    Yep, that is why exactly having the option to profile without having the cab part selected on the amp so you letting know the software that you are actually profiling all except that part so when selecting a cab, it wouldn't try to remove the cab frequencies out of it.... as it was not there in the profile.... would be awesome!


    so on a later stage, if u want to put a cab on the top of the DI profile u can do it without kemper "removing" any frequencies from the sound before that happens...


    not sure if possible, but for my usage would be a great feature....


    as at the moment, i need 2 profiles... 1 for DI/poweramp with my 4x12 and a fullprofile with that same cab miced up (for recording purposes) :whistling:

    Mhhh... This is not the way things work tho. The amp's sound strongly depends on the connected cab. IOW, "amp" + "cab" is something completely different from "amp+cab".
    An amp doesn't sound w/o a load (a cab), it doesn't make sense tot ry and define the sound of an amp in itself. It's not only that the sound is different because there's a different cab, but because the signal the amp outputs changes depending on the cab.


    HTH

    It doesn't sound, but it does carry electrical energy designed to be converted into sound ;)


    But I want to make sure my point is understood. The whole amp/cab labeling is not accurately describing what the profile is actually doing (I think, maybe someone from the mothership can confirm). The cab profile contains all resonance data, which includes electrical resonance from not only the output transformer, but the entire circuit, including the preamp. The amp profile is doing something entirely different. If you wanted to include resonance data in the amp profile, you'd be expanding its scope, which requires it to consume more DSP, which means the entire design of the software would need to be redone, but even if, there probably isn't enough DSP juice to do it.

    Quote from viabcroce

    Mhhh... This is not the way things work tho. The amp's sound strongly depends on the connected cab. IOW, "amp" + "cab" is something completely different from "amp+cab".
    An amp doesn't sound w/o a load (a cab), it doesn't make sense tot ry and define the sound of an amp in itself. It's not only that the sound is different because there's a different cab, but because the signal the amp outputs changes depending on the cab.


    HTH

    Ok, but if you getting a DI box between the amp and the cab (guessing is the resonance part of the circuit) woudnt it capture the load it will put under the load is putting at that moment... e.g if connected to a 4x12 at 8ohm... u should be capturing the reaction that particular amp would have when connected to that load (on the link of the DI box. and therefore you could add a 4x12 cab afterwards via sofware to simulate it?
    Im a bit confused so I might be seeing things easier that they actually are...

    Well, when you apply a cab and a DI box, the power amp sees a load which is the sum of the cab, the DI, the cable going out of the DI box and what's connected to the other end of the cable.
    Note that, depending on the impedance matches, the difference in sound might be small or negligible.
    Anyway, keep in mind that when you switch cabs off or swap cab the sonic result will never be of surgical accuracy, but always an approximation. A very musical one, tho: in any case, the result will be definitely useable :)

    resonance is a phenomenon that affects both mechanical and electrical processes. Again, there's no "resonance part" of the amp. Any time you are dealing with wave/cyclic energy, the entire medium is subject to resonance. The entire amp is the "resonance part". The resistance of the wires, the length of wire, the components in the circuit, the voltage, the amperage...all that affects how well the electricity can flow, which is dependent on frequency, on the state of the components just prior to the current moment in time, and countless other items.


    This is why there's no universal guitar pickup that can successfully replicate any other pickup.

    Hi Thanks for all the info folks! its good to know how the capturing part actually works!


    Im really happy with the results I get with the kemper, but the only issue I have is that when using a DI profile and attaching a IR in Logic sounds really really good... but swapping the cab for a 4x12 in the profiler doesnt seems to do the trick that well (bit harsh on the upper register)... as kemper tries to remove the cab where there isnt one, will be great if there is someway to "lock" the DI profile when adding a cab... which I hope using the same IR will give me the same results as doing it in the DAW.

    No, this is very simple.


    Redo the profile by sending the DI from the amp into your DAW with the desired IR loaded. Send the processed signal back to the KPA. Now the IR is the cab profile, but you're still capturing all the amp's resonance/impedance, etc.