Has anyone compared a Yamaha Dsr112 to an Atomic Clr?

Quote from JayMitchell

No. A 3dB increase requires doubling power. To double the apparent volume (to make something sound "twice as loud") requires a 10dB increase.

The manufacturer's rated peak SPL is a bigger number. Even if this were accurate, it has nothing to do with how "loud" a speaker can get. The important specification is continuous average SPL. According to the independent lab tests that Yamaha commissioned (by a lab that used one of my speaker designs to check its calibration when it was first being set up), the DSR 12 is capabe of 118dB continuous maximum output. This is an accurate figure, and it tells you all you need to know. The data file with this information is on the downloads page for the product.

No. The DSR 12 will produce maximum SPL that is indistinguishable from that produced by the CLR. If you're looking for something louder than a CLR, you won't find it in a single-woofer two way speaker. It's those pesky laws of physics at work.

Thanks sir, exhaustive and relaxing as usual. Incredible how much mythology we common people can come up with when cheated by direct or indirect advertisement (I know what I'm talking about, I worked as a senior copy in an adv company LOL).

Quote from Ingolf

Is it just me or are discussions about the 'right' cabs getting dogmatic and heated up too easily?

It's the same thing happening on many forums. Atomic has a very dedicated crew of "fans" who set out to turn any discussion about amps and speakers in the direction of their products. For other contributors on the forums it isn't even enough to praise their products. If we as much as discuss anything else these guys make every effort to get the last word. With such a small footprint on the gear-scene, forum-discussion and word of mouth is the most important advertising-channels for some of the smaller manufacturers and they use it for all its worth. As a result, if you want to judge gear by how well it is received by the forum community you should always try to look at the overall picture and try to ignore messages from the most vocal contributors.

To me what's most important is to inform those people who are turning to profiling and modelling about the difference in characteristics between the power-amps and cabs in a traditional guitar-amp and a FRFR-system and why that is important in order to get the most out of the KPA or other modelling amp. A lot of people are disappointed and turn away because they don't understand basic stuff such as for example why they don't get bell-like cleans from a modeller hooked up to their murky old cab. There are many alternatives that will work fine as long as you just make sure you get an amp/speaker-combo that is powerful-enough for your application. I've tried the high-end solutions such as the Atomic CLR and the Matrix Q12a. These are great, but none of them are as superior to other alternatives as their respective crowds of fainbois will claim. I've tried enough PA fullrange (mostly active) speakers to conclude that just about any modern design in this category will be fine for this purpose (JBL, QSC, Yamaha, Turbosound, HK, EV etc). The same goes for just about any FR stage-monitor (for live use) or near-field studio-monitor for home/practise use. Of course there are differences, but most can be ironed out with a touch of EQ. Heck, I've even used a couple cheap active Behringer wedges (F1320D) with my KPA with decent results, although I tend to gravitate towards more expensive makes and models.

Great post, heldal, and I agree with you.
There are many perfectly useable options in the FRFR market when you are willing to spend a good amount of money.
It's like listening to different studio monitors, You need to know the characteristics of what you are listening to inside out and there is not 'One better than the other'.

OTOH there's also a lot of rubbish mainly in the cheaper segments of this market. Unbelievable and definitely not a great listening experience at all.
This is different to the guitar cab market where you can buy a very cheap Harley Benton cab equipped with Celestion V30’s and it will still sound decent.

Quote from JayMitchell

No. A 3dB increase requires doubling power. To double the apparent volume (to make something sound "twice as loud") requires a 10dB increase.

It does not. The manufacturer's rated peak SPL is a bigger number. Even if this were accurate, it has nothing to do with how "loud" a speaker can get. The important specification is continuous average SPL. According to the independent lab tests that Yamaha commissioned (by a lab that used one of my speaker designs to check its calibration when it was first being set up), the DSR 12 is capabe of 118dB continuous maximum output. This is an accurate figure, and it tells you all you need to know. The data file with this information is on the downloads page for the product.

No. The DSR 12 will produce maximum SPL that is indistinguishable from that produced by the CLR. If you're looking for something louder than a CLR, you won't find it in a single-woofer two way speaker. It's those pesky laws of physics at work.

Well, I did say I hope I didn't get it wrong. This thread keeps getting worse and worse

Quote from heldal

It's the same thing happening on many forums. Atomic has a very dedicated crew of "fans" who set out to turn any discussion about amps and speakers in the direction of their products. For other contributors on the forums it isn't even enough to praise their products. If we as much as discuss anything else these guys make every effort to get the last word. With such a small footprint on the gear-scene, forum-discussion and word of mouth is the most important advertising-channels for some of the smaller manufacturers and they use it for all its worth. As a result, if you want to judge gear by how well it is received by the forum community you should always try to look at the overall picture and try to ignore messages from the most vocal contributors.

To me what's most important is to inform those people who are turning to profiling and modelling about the difference in characteristics between the power-amps and cabs in a traditional guitar-amp and a FRFR-system and why that is important in order to get the most out of the KPA or other modelling amp. A lot of people are disappointed and turn away because they don't understand basic stuff such as for example why they don't get bell-like cleans from a modeller hooked up to their murky old cab. There are many alternatives that will work fine as long as you just make sure you get an amp/speaker-combo that is powerful-enough for your application. I've tried the high-end solutions such as the Atomic CLR and the Matrix Q12a. These are great, but none of them are as superior to other alternatives as their respective crowds of fainbois will claim. I've tried enough PA fullrange (mostly active) speakers to conclude that just about any modern design in this category will be fine for this purpose (JBL, QSC, Yamaha, Turbosound, HK, EV etc). The same goes for just about any FR stage-monitor (for live use) or near-field studio-monitor for home/practise use. Of course there are differences, but most can be ironed out with a touch of EQ. Heck, I've even used a couple cheap active Behringer wedges (F1320D) with my KPA with decent results, although I tend to gravitate towards more expensive makes and models.

These are golden words!!!!!
I just hope potential buyers read this post first before buying or believing anything. The amount of nonsense and crap is unbelievable.
Maybe put this post as a manditory reading before you can open any forum.

I've rather an opposite impression. I'll try and explain why.

I'm not a fanboy. Of course I try and use things I like/appreciate.
It seems to me that there is a misunderstanding here. When I say (and I've said it a number of times) that the CLR is the best FRFR option available in its price range, I never meant that everyone, hooking their gear to a CLR, would feel in tone heaven by magic. In fact, you may not like the way your gear sounds with a linear cab just because your previous cab was adding a special colour that you now miss. What I mean when I praise the CLR is exactly what I say: they are ATM the most linear, transparent, faithful loudspeaker in their price range. This doesn't of course imply everyone likes (or has to like) a faithful reproduction of their gear's sound.

OTOH, some people praising the CLR probably do are fanboys, and imply/stress two things:

- that everyone will love the way their gear sound through a CLR;
- that nothing can sound "better" than any gear going through a CLR.

The logical fallacy in the latter point is what I was referring to earlier in this post, and it's related to what is perceived as "better" by the individual.

OTOH, people who fight those who praise the CLR are probably making three potential mistakes themselves IMO:

- they tried some and thought they'd experience an immediate and direct feeling of "tone heaven" regardless what gear they use and how it is set/tweaked;
- for some reason, they believe that stating that the CLR is the best linear loudspeaker around implies that everyone using one should feel in tone heaven etc;
- they feel frustrated/disturbed by Mr. Mitchell's Internet persona's arrogance and by his explanations/demonstrations' impregnability, and just deny what he states on a principle. (Note: Mr. Mitchell has never written AFAIK that rhe CLR "sounds the best")

IMO, we should not make the mistake of thinking that, since there are fanboys (as for any piece of hardware ln the market, even outside the musical realm), then the CLR is destined to follow the curve of any other "fashonable" piece of gear which just gets dismissed when the next "perceived greatest" thing comes out. We can safely say the CLR is state-of-the-art for its price: we'll need a step forward in technology or a drastic reduction in costs (materials, manufacturing) to get something better in terms of P/Q ratio.

Unlike guitar amps, instruments or fx, a linear system can be measured. The CLR performs outstandingly for its price, you won't find anything more linear and transparent for the application in its price range ATM. If you don't like how your gear sounds through one, it's because you don't like what your gear is outputting.
If this happens, there are two possible scenarios I can see:

- you can tweak your gear so that what it outputs is exactly what you want to hear. In this case the CLR is the perfect companion for your gear, it will faithfully reproduce your gear's voice and feel and will translate the best on other systems;
- you can't. In this case, a linear system is not what you need/want. Either look at a less linear loudspeaker, or at a not-at-all linear one such as a guitar cab.

It's also worth underlying that what makes a product superior to another is not always apparent: this may happen because the situation/scenario/application doesn't stress a specific characteristics for example. I'd agree that for just using a guitar at home many people might be as happy with a different "FRFR" cab. But there are other qualities that show under specific uses: the phase coherence between the two audio ways, the specially-designed diffusion pattern, the ability to sound good even in a problematic room, the extraordinarily flat amplitude response and distortion values. Whenever these qualities are not critical for you (or you just don't perceive them, which is not a trivial point), the CLR's perceived added value gets lower. Absolutely nothing wrong with this. (Note: someone who doesn't like the CLR probably assumed that those praising the products were implying he was dumb/stupid?)

The CLR is ATM the best linear loudspeaker for professional audio available in its price segment (things may change at some point). This doesn't of course imply you'll like it or you'll need one. But please, stop fighting against it.
What most people lack IMO is the courage of just saying "I don't like X" w/o feeling they have to bash X or to fight those who like it. Most important, if despite all you need to bash anything which performs well on the basis of measurable quantities, please suggest alternatives and supply data.

Peace

Quote from nico45

I have the backline CLR raised off the floor perched on a roadcase, and is at equivalent height to my waist/torso.

You are using the CLR's free field ("FF") switch selection then, correct? If not, then you should do so. The "BL" setting is only appropriate for placement of the speaker on the floor.

Gianfranco, engaging with dada is an exercise in futility. He has an agenda and will not be deterred by facts.

Fact is I do not make any money whatever customers decide to buy.
It is called being independent.

Oh, my post was against no-one specifically, let alone Dada. But I've read any possible thread and post about the CLRs since they first came out and, while I've nothing against the expression of personal tastes and of an independent mind, I just can't stand irrational attitudes just put up in order to be "against".

I'm fully aware that facts are the means in order for rational minds to tell their truth. Fact is, people don't like to have to do with facts, specially when they feel reality is too tight for them. Uh, if they only could see how much reality is larger than us all...
People, do whatever makes you happy! No need to be against anything. Religion wars should have taught us something after so many years...

All lies and jest...
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest...

Ingo, what about making a new test comparing CLR, Q12a, DXR10 and DSR112?

I know that you really like your DXR10 because they're lighter than the CLR and they sound pretty decent, even the CLR may sound a bit better in the end.

Now I'm really curious about the DSR112, they seem to work very well with the KPA and they're available everywhere.

I am not anybody's fanboy. I've allways tried to state in a short succinct manner, only the differences I personally heard from my CLR in comparison to the many other speakers I have tried.

I have also made some alternative sugestions. As most of us I ,even at 64, will continually strive to get the best and most versatile tone for my needs : No matter what it is, that's how I arrived here with a KPA

I like my CLR Actives, very neutral tone when set up correctly. I free field mine on poles. I can also make them sound really bad if I want. Just put 'em in a room with low ceilings, in wedge mode and crank to ungodly levels. We're talkin' waves, nodes, all kinds of crap flying around. Of course, I can make anything sound bad

The point is you have to listen to how your room reacts, position your cab accordingly and be used to the mic'ed sound of profiles. I spent the last decade of my performing life with my amp up at ear level. That's why the KPA and CLR's give me what I expect.

On another note: The CLR's kind of remind me of my old UREI 809 studio monitors. Remember "live end/dead end" and "time aligned"?

Quote from guenterhaas

Ingo, what about making a new test comparing CLR, Q12a, DXR10 and DSR112?

I know that you really like your DXR10 because they're lighter than the CLR and they sound pretty decent, even the CLR may sound a bit better in the end.

Now I'm really curious about the DSR112, they seem to work very well with the KPA and they're available everywhere.

Good idea! Let's do it sometime, after my holidays.
I'm not in need (and neither in the mood) to invest in another high- price solution ATM. What about you?

Quote from viabcroce

The CLR is ATM the best linear loudspeaker for professional audio available in its price segment (things may change at some point). This doesn't of course imply you'll like it or you'll need one. But please, stop fighting against it.

While I don't doubt the CLR's qualities for a second the above phrase is the perfect example as to WHY discussions with CLR in context often end up like they do.

The flaw here is: You may say that the CLR is the MOST linear speaker (in it's price segment) as a thesis and can back this up with data, fine.
But saying it is the BEST linear loudspeaker is a value judgment based on your personal preferences alone.
This will always lead to controversy because a personal value judgment by definition has to be personal and individual and trying to generalize a personal value judgment always sounds 'a bit too bold', if you know what I mean. Dogmatic, if you will.

To make my point more clear: As a comparison, take the best mixing engineers in the world, the class of Clearmountain, Pensado, Lord-Alge.
If it was only about linearity and flatness of monitors those guys surely would all be choosing the same solution, the monitors with the most linear and flat published data. They know about gear and they can afford it.
Still they have that different and individual approaches to their art that they choose completely different and individual solutions to perform their art.
And they don't have that dogmatic discussions about gear like we have here.
Of course they have discussions, but it's more about what they like and why.
And in the end everybody has to conclude that when doing this craft seriously you come to great solutions with totally different gear.

This openness and pragmatism is something I miss very much and it would do the discussion very good.

Correcting factual errors is not being "dogmatic." To someone who is not knowledgeable in a field - especially when the individual believes (s)he possesses such knowledge - it may seem so, however. The greatest problem is being unaware of what you don't know.

I see what you mean Ingolf, but this seems to me like discussing of angels' gender, as we say in Italy
Also, I can't but notice that you just dismissed my long post through just a single, small word... LOL

In my mind, "the best linear cab" and "the most linear cab" are synonimous, since the main way a linear cab can be good is to be ... linear and trasparent. Note I'd never write such a thing for a guitar, a guitar amp or cab. Dogmatic would be, in my mind and by definition, "I like this one best, so it is the best and you have to agree".
The CLR has got the greatest specs on the market, and sounds very well. That's all for me.
As Mr. Mitchell wrote in response to someon on TGP,

Quote

Q: Flat response is in response to what?

A: The acoustic pressure generated by the speaker at a listening position has the same spectral and temporal content as the voltage of the signal presented to its input.

Q: I can listen to two different speakers and tell a difference. But can I tell you which one is right and which one is wrong?

A: If you know what you are doing, you can say which one more closely approaches "right." I do that all the time.

Display More

Also, I don't think that my small word has started the argument on the Net about the CLR... LOL I'm no way discussing others' tastes, and have said since day one "choose what you like best"... My previous post is addressed to those who, in order to fight fanboysm, become talibans and make the same error... but in the opposite direction People who write for example that Mr. Mitchell is biased or has an agenda, when he never wrote AFAIK anything he could not back up with facts. People who maybe tried it, did not like the results for any reasons, and then write that the product is hyped.
And I really ask myself what's the problem in saying something like "wow, I'm grateful to Mr. Mitchell for the things I've learned from him, but I like how the XYZ sounds better".

When you read statements such as

Quote

I just hope potential buyers read this post first before buying or believing anything. The amount of nonsense and crap is unbelievable.

you realize there's a fight going on, and a lot of isms, where the object of discussion itself gets forgotten in favour of belonging to one of the two parts. Choosing becomes "believing", what you do not agree with becomes "crap" and "nonsense". Like it happens with all religions.
People siding with any of the two parties should keep in mind that not all who say that the CLR is great know what they're saying, and not all who say that the formers are biased know what they're saying

As a side note, you know I consider you a pretty balanced and mature person and respect what you think
OTOH, I would not agree on your parallel about what engineers choose being relevant, just along the line of reasoning you have used yourself: just necause you don't have to mix using the most linear cab available, but instead mix with what makes you feel more at ease, and what your experience tells you your mixes will translate best with. Which brings me back to were I started from: use whatever makes you happy, but do not bash a good product ("the CLR is boomy/noisy/scooped/veiled" etc... I've read any kind of things on the Net).

Last, but not least, I know that many won't believe this, but I feel no need to push AA, get no money for advising about the CLR, have no agreement with either Tom King or Jay Mitchell. The opposite is true, if ever: when I talked on the phone with Tom in order to discuss availability in Italy, I was the one telling him "I like the product and its design a lot: how could I help you promoting it?" His answer was "thanks, I'm glad you like it and, if you are happy using it feel free to write what you liked about it; but we do not need any hype, there's already lots of it on the Net".
I've also written a number of times that I do not consider the CLR the perfect overall audio solution, but just the best option for the money and the application... So you can believe I am honest

Quote from DADA

Fact is I do not make any money whatever customers decide to buy.

You are making an obvious assumption about the basis for my compensation. While it is none of your business and I will not divulge details, I will say that there are many ways to compensate outside consultants for their work and that any assumption you make along those lines is almost certainly incorrect.

I am curious how the CLRs respond in the sub 100 region. A real amp tends to have some energy in that region and I have only been able to capture that using subwoofer.

Quote from mikeb

I am curious how the CLRs respond in the sub 100 region.

Per the published specifications, it responds down to 70 Hz (3 dB down at that frequency).

Quote

A real amp tends to have some energy in that region

Most real guitar cabs, however, cut off quite sharply above 100Hz. It is common to mistake a response peak at or just above 100 Hz for extended low frequency response. FYI, quite a few bass cabs go no lower in frequency than the CLR.