OK Testing FW 3.0! [How Kemper works? All amps sound similar]?

Quote from HamerJo

Well, with all due respect Syre. I cannot think of a reliable way (but maybe I did not think hard enough) to verify this steep assertion. A direct comparison (played with common loudness) would make it very hard for my ears to decide. Then there is the question of microphones, A/D transformers, cable lengths, ways of hitting the strings, resonance of the room, number and size of loudspeakers etc. Peter W. from "Musikhochschule Köln" did a very, very thorough comparison between tube amps and kemper (both of them were real when last I looked) when the kpa just hit the market. The waveforms of this comparison are still available and show clear enough the differences between both sound sources. Most people don't have € 100K equipment ready to repeat the test on their own. Even though, to my ears the kpa is not challenged by any other digital device.
As for now I think that deadlight's statements, who has much more expierience in these matters than I do probably got it right.
And yes I'd really like to know how this wonder was done. Since this one obviously is a really hard nut to crack that keeps on puzzling me:

Keep on digging.

Joachim

Maybe you're thinking too complicated, no offense
I'm speaking of direct amp profiles. Weihe never touched them, he tested studio profiling when the Kemper was new. There are no such varying factors like different cable lengths etc. in my chain. It's Guitar->direct amp profile->Camplifier->cab. Always the same hardware, in the same room, with the same guitar, same guitarist, same cat (maybe in different position) etc.

Deduction chain:

Fact1: All(!) sounds have way too much high mids with 1960AV.
Suspects at this point: Guitar, Kemper, Camplifier and Cab.

Fact2: With the behringer cab the high mids are gone, now bass is way too much.
That rules out the suspects Kemper/guitar/Camplifier, cause they are still in the chain and the overscooped high mids are gone and the bass has come into place.

Which suspect is left? The cab!
Does that cab have that much high mids with my other amps? No. Is the cab known for it's high mids? Yes.
Is the Behringer that bass heavy with other amps? No. Is the cab known for beeing bass heavy? Yes.

Next question: Why do these well known characteristics of famous cabs stand out that much with the Kemper?
My guess: Because the parts in the Amp-simulation that usually keep those frequencies tamed are not there or not working like in the original.
What would be your guess?

IMHO it's simple to hear. When you know the strong frequencies of your cab and find them coming into effect way more with the Kemper than with your other amps, what else could be the conclusion? That the cab in this case has more influence on the overall sound then with other amps.

I also tend to agree with Deadlights theory, but it does not explain why a Powerball sounds like a Bandit on my system. Maybe some amps sound very close but not that 80s solid state combo and a modern full tube head.

That was quick, a very careful analysis. Thank you guys (DamianGreda and Syre) I have to think about it for a while. Since I once owned a sunn beta lead solid state amp I know for sure that it did not sound tube-like. I did a studio profiling session with it but that's no use in this regard. Actually a very special sound that I sold to a happy nirvana fan. So I no longer can get a direct amp profile from it.

I agree with you: This comparison indeed is hard to explain.

Keep digging

Joachim

i love my 1960AV to me its sounds very balanced
yes and i love it with the Kemper too

I think M Britt profiles ( and the KPA of course ) are a great lesson in how much the cab / mic affects the overall tone.

they are all the same cab / mic combination , the diferences between amps are not abysmal.

imho , its really hard to capture the complete "soul" of an amp with just a couple mikes.

same with recordings , how many times did you ask yourself what amp is the artist using ?

Some famous producer said: "i never show guitarists their pure sound in the endmix, they would be horrified how thin it is".
All those low cuts, high cuts, compressors, maximizers, cymbals in the heigh frequencies, bassguitar in the low frequencies etc.
I can hardly recognize my own amps on my old CDs.

Are we talking ab the kpa in general here or just swapping cabs on merged profiles?

Hi Syre,

Now I found some time for thinking and for a few experiments on my own too.

Obviously I did not make myself clear (sorry for that). I only questioned the reliability of listening to amps with cabs that are not a digital image but do exist outside the kemper and then comparing these to the kemper. Your way of analysis surely is valid for discovering kemper profiles being differently interpreted by attached cabs and the more unnerving fact that some amps sound similar when they should not. What I had in mind was to compare was a "real" cab and a "real" amp with a digital representation of the amp and a "real" cab hooked on the kpa. That's what I find difficult - the reasons why I already named.
I then decided to make one simple experiment on my own that could be done with the modest equipment I had ready.
I hooked up three different (real) cabs (1 X 15", 2 X 12", 1 X 12") to one and the same "real" amp (Fender Blues Junior). Result: I did not recognize the combo I knew in two of these configurations. That I repeated with another amp (old Dynaccord EL34 100W tank) and a Peavey Deltablues. Same result here. I know the amps sounds by heart in their "natural" habitat. No way with different cabs, there were rather heavy differences where I expected only modest modifications.
That settled it for me.
Since the kpa delivers all in all a very convincing copy of the "natural" sound and the"natural" behaviour it's sound should be more or less dependent on the cab hooked on.
So I may rest assured: If I don't like it I always can use studio profiles or another cab or another amp. A lot of things to chose from. Truth be told most times I stick to 5 - 7 profiles for every guitar I use. Or I entertain the tele wich sits well with nearly all profiles.
Only thing I could do right now is to try hard for a good "natural" cab (surely costing me money) whenever I like to use a natural amp and a natural cab. Then again wouldn't it be wiser to invest in a really good frfr solution like yamaha dxr xx?

Thank you very much for your efforts. I did very much appreciate them and they helped me to make sure that things are allright for me as they are. Surely I will follow this very interesting discussion. There's a lot to learn. And I'm quite happy that no one asked me to check the main power chord....

Joachim

Hi Joachim,
I hope i understood you right now. So you say the sound character of the combo you tested got alternated that much by the different cabs you use, that you come to the conclusion, that the cab always has this heavy influence on any amp. That correct?

My experiences are different. When i toured with my metal band in the 90s we most of the time organized 'swap gigs'. Bands came to visit us for a gig, then we visited them for another gig. We practiced cab sharing on these events. That means my rig went through Engl, Mesa, Behringer, Marshall, Laney or whatever cabs. It always just needed a little tweaking to get along and the main character of my amp never got lost. So back then i had the impression that my amp did the main part of the sound and the (good) cabs only colorize a little.
There where times when i used my rhythm guitarists Engl cab, but that didn't turn my rig into his Engl head.
Now i use the Kemper and they tell me 'hey sounds like a real mesa' and i must say 'nope, sounds like my marshall with some amp i don't know.'
Then they tell me 'hey sounds like a soldano' and i have to say 'nope, sounds like you took away the treble a little bit from the wannabe mesa you showed me before.'

Quote from Syre

Maybe you're thinking too complicated, no offense
I'm speaking of direct amp profiles. Weihe never touched them, he tested studio profiling when the Kemper was new. There are no such varying factors like different cable lengths etc. in my chain. It's Guitar->direct amp profile->Camplifier->cab. Always the same hardware, in the same room, with the same guitar, same guitarist, same cat (maybe in different position) etc.

Deduction chain:

Fact1: All(!) sounds have way too much high mids with 1960AV.
Suspects at this point: Guitar, Kemper, Camplifier and Cab.

Fact2: With the behringer cab the high mids are gone, now bass is way too much.
That rules out the suspects Kemper/guitar/Camplifier, cause they are still in the chain and the overscooped high mids are gone and the bass has come into place.

Which suspect is left? The cab!
Does that cab have that much high mids with my other amps? No. Is the cab known for it's high mids? Yes.
Is the Behringer that bass heavy with other amps? No. Is the cab known for beeing bass heavy? Yes.

Next question: Why do these well known characteristics of famous cabs stand out that much with the Kemper?
My guess: Because the parts in the Amp-simulation that usually keep those frequencies tamed are not there or not working like in the original.
What would be your guess?

IMHO it's simple to hear. When you know the strong frequencies of your cab and find them coming into effect way more with the Kemper than with your other amps, what else could be the conclusion? That the cab in this case has more influence on the overall sound then with other amps.

I also tend to agree with Deadlights theory, but it does not explain why a Powerball sounds like a Bandit on my system. Maybe some amps sound very close but not that 80s solid state combo and a modern full tube head.

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Interesting discussion here.
When you say that with 3.0 the cab took over too much, have you already compared your findings with the automatic separation between amp/cab pre 3.0 (=cabdriver)?

again, it has nothing to do with the Kemper. 3 different real amps will also sound close on real cab....close but with a difference. I clearly hear a difference in 5150III/6534 for example...with real amps + kemper DIs. The seperation is very good.
But when you add a mic in front, the small difference gets even less...but is still there.
Not only brighter/darker...i clearly hear the Amp character.
When you compare my profiles in the merged rigpack its 12 Profiles..always same cab, same mic, same position because i did not want to share to many cabs for free
all of them sound quiet different...at least to me

Quote from Syre

Hi Joachim,
I hope i understood you right now. So you say the sound character of the combo you tested got alternated that much by the different cabs you use, that you come to the conclusion, that the cab always has this heavy influence on any amp. That correct?

Hi Syre,

that is exactly what I had in mind.
Without mics, without further ado. Just my own two ears.

I would not endorse the statement that this result is true for any amp and any cab to the same extent because there has to be some kind of interaction (adaption) between amp and cab. Manufacturers wouldn't go great lengths to find the right cab for their amp.
Then there's the amount of gain. Most time I play with just a modicum of gain. So I didn't check heavy gaining in this Setting. Could it be that heavy gain means you are knocking against the limits of a "real" amp but in no way are testing the limits of a digital device (the kemper does not know that the "real" amp is doing hard work) likewise. It may very well be that the question's answers also depend on the level of gain. Could be I'm totally wrong here.
Mind you, though, I could always change the amp settings to get closer (but not identical) to the sound it had to be i.e. adapt to the new cab. But that wasn't my point in this setting.

Thanks

Joachim

So maybe this will interest you - only the speakers (differences) :

Quote from Ingolf

[quote='Syre','http://www.kemper-amps.com/forum/index.php/Thread/18962-OK-Testing-FW-3-0/?postID=213334&#post213334']

Interesting discussion here.
When you say that with 3.0 the cab took over too much, have you already compared your findings with the automatic separation between amp/cab pre 3.0 (=cabdriver)?

Sure i did. Big improvement. Cabdriver sounded like my V-Amp Pro, somehow modeller-like, didn't work. That's why i worked with direct amp profiles (old style that occupies the cab section) from the beginning.
As i said, in my perception we have gotten to sound like a real amp now, but the 'original' character thing is something that should be improved IMHO.

One thing i still have to think about is, that my own profile of my rig back with the old 'direct amp profile' sounded very authentic, but the downloaded ones from rig exchange don't. So i not only suspect the amp section of merged profiles to not contain the whole charcacter of an amp, i furthermore have the suspicion that there are still parts in there that get influenced by the cab or the dummy load one uses for profiling. And as we can see in Deadlights posts: If you do your own profiles, they are fine for you.

Quote from DamianGreda

So maybe this will interest you - only the speakers (differences) :

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Wish he would use two amps, then this could prove how much an amp character is preserved through different speakers. But this way it only proves that speakers sound different.
By the way, that video kept me from buying rockdrivers a while ago

Quote from metalmike

Please do it! We all really need the results of this tests!

I made mistake supporting this result (even if the test isn't done) because this test has a major flow, uses the same cab so the profile will have the cab's impedance behavior etc, meaning the recorded difference between Kemper direct out profiles and real amp with the same cab will be none.

So, the one and only test Sinmix could do is below:

1)Take a real amp (AMP A) and a real cab (CAB A) and record it (SAMPLE A)
2)Create a direct out profile from the real amp (with the same settings of course) using the same cab (CAB A)
3)Use the Kemper (with the direct out profile created in step 2), same cab (CAB A) and record it (SAMPLE B)
4)Compare SAMPLE A and SAMPLE B

The resuls? Difference --> none

So you are extremely happy, right? You think everything is perfect! Well, don't hurry...

5)Take the same amp (AMP A) and a second real cab (CAB B) and record it (SAMPLE C)
6)Take Kemper (with the direct out profile created with CAB A in step 2), second cab (CAB B) and record it (SAMPLE D)
7) Compare SAMPLE C and SAMPLE D

The results? Difference --> exists (how much need to be heard)

Do you want to know why? Read the text below (it's from Kemper's official site):

"What is the purpose of this when the sound of the speaker will not be captured in the Profile? The purpose is to capture the amp including the complex impedance behavior of the speaker. This method captures those often discussed interactions between the power tube-amp and the connected speaker cabinet. When the Profile is played back through the Profiler’s built-in class D amp, or an external solid state power amp, it will recreate the same impedance situation to the connected speaker-cabinet."

But it doesn't tell the whole truth...it will recreate the same impedance situation to the connected speaker-cabinet...so, if you use another cab (meaning different impedance behavior and interactions between amp and cab) from the one you use to capture the direct out profiles, the sound will not be the same like the real amp would have. It's the real amp's power amp that has it's own impedance behavior with any cab (it's power amp behavior differs, it depends on the cab) and this cannot be copied somehow to a direct profile (yet, at least).

So, @sinmix please, when you have time, make the test i just described above and prove me wrong! Trust me guys, the one that will be happy the most if i am wrong is myself

Quote from metalmike

But it doesn't tell the whole truth...it will recreate the same impedance situation to the connected speaker-cabinet...so, if you use another cab (meaning different impedance behavior and interactions between amp and cab) from the one you use to capture the direct out profiles, the sound will not be the same like the real amp would have. It's the real amp's power amp that has it's own impedance behavior with any cab (it's power amp behavior differs, it depends on the cab) and this cannot be copied somehow to a direct profile (yet, at least).

That's what i meant when i said there are still parts of the dummy load or the cab used for profiling in a 'direct amp profile'. Thank you for making this clear.

OR there is another approach to test that Amp part is well or not simulated . It may be not pleasant to ears but you can compare DI signal before the cab part.
1. Record Di signal between Amp A and Cab A + record Guitar signal for reamping in DAW
2. Profile the AMP A with CAB A(DI profile)
3. Reamp the Guitar signal with KPA DI profile (without the cab).
4. compare the DI results(without a cab part).

Quote from metalmike

[quote='metalmike','http://www.kemper-amps.com/forum/index.php/Thread/18962-OK-Testing-FW-3-0/?postID=212616&#post212616'][quote='sinmix','http://www.kemper-amps.com/forum/index.php/Thread/18962-OK-Testing-FW-3-0/?postID=212592&#post212592'][quote]

it will recreate the same impedance situation to the connected speaker-cabinet...so, if you use another cab (meaning different impedance behavior and interactions between amp and cab) from the one you use to capture the direct out profiles, the sound will not be the same like the real amp would have. It's the real amp's power amp that has it's own impedance behavior with any cab (it's power amp behavior differs, it depends on the cab) and this cannot be copied somehow to a direct profile (yet, at least).

With all due respect that is sound thinking. I'd be very surprised if this Kind of logic could be proved wrong. Bravo!

Joachim