OK Testing FW 3.0! [How Kemper works? All amps sound similar]?

All I know is that I cannot tell a difference between the Kemper and the reference amp in a mix. The Kemper is amazing.

Quote from theway

Ok I'm new to kemper. I've got Mesa rec-Jvm -5150 iii-Mesa V all incredible tube amps. I run my kemper to a ISP Stealth then to a Mesa 4x12. All of my Amps have there own footprint in tone-very different. I have never profiled these amps because I just got kemper. I did buy tonehammers and sin mix profiles . I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong or if the kemper is not for me but ALL of the high gain profiles are pretty much the same tone and feel. Pretty bummed out. A Jvm sounds nothing like a Mark series amp , but in kemper world mode it does

If you are using studio profiles (not DI or MERGED profiles), the separation between the amp and the cab is nos accurate and using them through a guitar cab (switching off the cab) will sound different than the amp.

I don't use high gain profiles but all the low to mid profiles I have done have their own character through a guitar cab and are very different through the same cab. If the DI profile is almost identical to the real amp when played through a guitar cab will be very different from another one which is as identical to the corresponding amp, isn't it?

I did a video of a Fuchs ODS and it's merged profile through a guitar cab miced with a SM57 and they are very close. That profile is not going to sound like the one from another amp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCtFKzavboQ

Quote from Tritium

[quote='theway','http://www.kemper-amps.com/forum/index.php/Thread/18962-OK-Testing-FW-3-0-How-Kemper-works-All-amps-sound-similar/?postID=232028#post232028']Ok I'm new to kemper. I've got Mesa rec-Jvm -5150 iii-Mesa V all incredible tube amps. I run my kemper to a ISP Stealth then to a Mesa 4x12. All of my Amps have there own footprint in tone-very different. I have never profiled these amps because I just got kemper. I did buy tonehammers and sin mix profiles . I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong or if the kemper is not for me but ALL of the high gain profiles are pretty much the same tone and feel. Pretty bummed out. A Jvm sounds nothing like a Mark series amp , but in kemper world mode it does

Theway,

Please do not take offense at this question...but have you fully and completely read both the Kemper "Basic Manual 3.0" as well as the much more in depth "Reference Manual 3.0"?

Notwithstanding your familiarity with the Kemper's user guides...
Can you confirm that you have disabled the CAB profiling when you are playing normal (studio) profiles on your KPA, connected to an external power amp and traditional guitar cabinet?

Since you are playing through a traditional guitar cabinet, you will want to globally disable the Cabinet profiling (Cab simulations), by going to Output Menu, soft button above the menu parameter "Monitor Cab Off". Make sure the "check mark" in the toggle box in the menu display is empty. This will turn off the cabinet simulations on all rig / profiles, globally. Also, you should make sure you are using the physical MONITOR Output jack to connect to your external power amp ---> NOT the MAIN Output jack(s). When you disable the Cabinet simulation in the Output Menu (Monitor Cab Off)...it only disables the cabinet sims on the signal going out the MONITOR Output jack. The MAIN Output jack(s) still retains the cabinet simulations, to allow this full signal (including cab sims) to be routed to the main Mixer and Front of House PA, during live performances.

I have noticed that many of the high gain STUDIO profiles on the KPA will sound similar, if your are connected to a traditional guitar cabinet, and have forgotten to turn off the CAB simulations.

I realize you may already be familiar with this, and are already doing this...but as you are a new owner, the question still needs to be asked.

Cheers
John

Hey John thanks for the information, I do turn off the cabinet under the stack. The only thing Im not doing that sounds like your recommend is??? Im currently running 2 cables from the main outpur of the KPA to the ISP Stealth. Should I not do that and run just from the monitor out to the ISP Stealth?

Hi!

if you use the Monitor Cab Off option at the output menu, this affects only the monitor out and you are not using it. plug your power amp to this output and check if they still sound the same.

saludos!

Quote from theway

Hey John thanks for the information, I do turn off the cabinet under the stack. The only thing Im not doing that sounds like your recommend is??? Im currently running 2 cables from the main outpur of the KPA to the ISP Stealth. Should I not do that and run just from the monitor out to the ISP Stealth?

Hi theway,

Yes, if you are connecting to a traditional guitar cabinet, via an external amp, you should connect your KPA using the MONITOR Output jack ==> external power amp ==> traditional guitar cabinet.

What may be happening, here, is that you may think that the CAB profile/simulation is OFF on all profiles, as you switch rigs. However, the soft button for "Cabinet", which will turn on/off the CAB simulation, works only on the current rig you have selected. In other words, if your are connected using the MAIN output, you may have correctly disabled the CAB simulation by tapping the soft button and turning the CAB sim OFF. However, the INSTANT you switch to another Rig/Profile, the CAB sim may automatically be turned back on / re-enabled...unless you specifically saved it as a "FAVORITE", without the CAB sim. That is why you should connect via the MONITOR Output jack. When you do this, you can go into the OUTPUT MENU, and select MONITOR CAB / OFF. This will GLOBALLY disable the cab simulation, so that whenever you switch rigs/profiles (patches), the CAB simulation remains disabled in the signal coming out of the MONITOR Output (and to your guitar cabinet). However, the MAIN Output signal still retains the full profile, including the CAB simulation.

There are good reasons for this set-up. For example, when using the KPA in live, performance situation (playing live, at a club), and you are using an amp and traditional guitar cabinet as your personal monitor/sound on the stage...then you would want the CAB simulations turned off.

However, the IMPORTANT feature is that the signal you send to the main mixing board and the FOH (Front-of-House / PA), utilizing the MAIN Output jacks, features the full studio profile INCLUDING the cab simulations.

Here is an excerpt from the KPA Reference Manual ver 3.0, which is pertinent to this discussion:

Quote

Running a Guitar Speaker Cabinet by a Power Amplifier, “ Monitor Cab
Off ”
For the perfect on-stage setup, the Profiler allows to simultaneously run a guitar speaker-cabinet through a power-
amp, and - at the same time - send a complete studio sound (amplifier plus cabinet and microphone) from the MAIN
OUTPUTS to the front-of-house mixing desk. Since your guitar cabinet doesn’t need to be picked up via microphone
any more, it becomes your personal monitor on stage. The MONITOR OUTPUT features an independent volume
control, as well as a dedicated Monitor Output Equalizer in the Output Menu. These allow you to tailor the sound to
your speaker cabinet, while the sound on the other outputs remain unaffected.
For this setup, you need to bypass the Cabinet Profile for the MONITOR OUTPUT, so as to avoid running a cabinet
simulation through a physical cabinet. The soft button "Monitor Cab Off" in the Output Menu will bypass the Cabinet
Profile for the MONITOR OUTPUT as well as the built-in power-amp of PowerHead and PowerRack, while the
Cabinet Profile stays active for the other outputs including the MAIN OUTPUTS. This is a global setting, and thus
applied to all Rigs. However, the signal from the MONITOR OUTPUT is processed according to the kind of Profile
included in the Rig: for regular Studio Profiles, the CabDriver algorithm is activated, whereas Merged Profiles feed
the direct amp sound to the MONITOR OUTPUT and built-in power-amp.

Display More

Hope this may be helpful...but let me know if you have any more questions.

Cheers,
John

Sorry if this is off topic but I was playing a profile today with cab sim turned off for the monitor output but on for everything else. With the profile I was using I've been having some unwanted high frequencies which I made a thread for. I thought I'd try and mess with the amp section to see if that makes a difference but it didn't so for the sake of it I thought I'd mess with the cab section expecting it not too do anything because the cab was turned off but in fact it was actually making a difference which I find weird.
Has anyone else experienced this?

Oh and to stay on track I do notice a difference between profiles but there is an underlying similarity.

Quote from sinmix

Do not you miss? for sound of real Tube? It's my amp and yes for me perfect sound!

External Content www.youtube.com

Content embedded from external sources will not be displayed without your consent.

Display all external content

Through the activation of external content, you agree that personal data may be transferred to third party platforms. We have provided more information on this in our privacy policy.

Stay Metal!

Hi Sinmix,

Well...tone is, as they say, "in the ear of the beholder". What may be someone's "Holy Grail" tone, may be another's "Can of Angry Bees" tone. I love me some classic Heavy Metal...but I just don't have the ear for down-tuned cookie monster type thrash/death/doom genre. Again, just my personal tastes, and I am in no way disrespecting or dismissing this style of music.

However, with that said, and being completely honest...

I can't for the life of me figure out who would be able to tell from that clip (given the uber-GAIN and EQ settings), that this was an actual tube amp, versus a solid-state metal amp that is quite psychotic and extremely pissed off. If it ever became self-aware, I imagine it would seek to exterminate the entire human race. And that would be on one of it's "good" days.

Quote from theBox

You know what, I agree with sinmix 100%. The only "problem" i had with the profiler pre-fw2.8 was that different amps through the same CAB sounded almost the same (if they had comparable gain obviously). I was led to believe that with the release of the FW3.0 this problem would be solved. Well, from what merged profiles I've tried so far (sinmix, deadlight, thumas etc), the problem remains. The CAB part of a profile ALWAYS contributes A LOT more to the final sound than the AMP part.

I think the test to determine if its a general occurance or Kemper-specific, would be to record three REAL amps on the IDENTICAL real-cab and mic setup, and then compare the results to their three kemper direct amp profiles on the same (kemper) cab.

I have personally never done such a test (nor am I able to), but when plugging my evh 5150 and my mesa mark iv in the SAME cab (evh 2x12), their "in the room" sounds (ie no mics) are VERY different. With the profiler....not so much. So maybe the variable contributing the most could be the MICS? I dont't know...

I agree with this statement, we can try all we want but the tones are simular for HIGH GAIN profiles. The clean channels seem to really work. This is a new company Im sure 5yrs from now they will have nailed it down.

@sinmix are you leaving the DI box hooked to the cabinet when doing the studio part of the profile?

It is my idea that the box influences the impedance reaction and causes a sound change when hooked up.

So for example, if you profile studio profile with out di box and merge with a direct amp profile made with a di box there will be a difference in the merged profile vs the direct amp profile.

If the di box is hooked up when the studio profile and the direct amp profile are taken then there should not be a difference between the direct amp and the merged.

This leads me to the belief that the DI box influences the sound of the amp and the specific DI box used is important.

Quote from sinmix

Yes! Always! without this comparison did not make sense to Kemper dibox vs Behringer Dibox - Pink Noise Test. So dthis is also not a dibox problem becouse as you see even Behringer Dibox is more transparent than Kemper Dibox.

Stay Metal!

Very interesting. Thanks for posting the pink noise test. I am curious to see how other DI boxes compare.

Just to make things clear, are these Kemper direct profiles and one or more "real" amps?

Ten (almost) identical samples.
Yesterday I did experiment with Splawn nitro & MB Mark V profiles. I turned off everything but amp. Then I set amp parameters to same values. Guess what? They sounded identical. So now I have to investigate more.

Grzegorz, could you please provide isolated guitar reamp tracks for each amp? I would like to compare them. Thanks.