Toggle (in addition to 0 off, 1 on) values for Stomp CC's etc

    I've been trying to program a third party footcontroller to reliably turn stomps on and off for ages now. The fundamental problem is that there is no way for the controller to know the current state (on or off) of any given stomp before it sends its first message. So we get into these scenarios where we have to load a rig, then stomp on all the pedals a couple of times to get the KPA and the controller sync'd up. And if you're trying to translate messages from a device that will only send PC's, (i.e. the same value on every press) then you're completely out of luck.


    I think this would be immensely valuable to anyone using generic third-party controllers:


    In addition to the on (1) and off (0) CC messages associated with each stomp (ABCD), the KPA should also respond to some other arbitrary value (maybe 127, maybe anything other than 0 or 1) by toggling that stomp slot. That is, turn it off if it is on, turn it on if it is off. This would apply to CC's 17, 18, 19, 20, 22, 24, 26, and 28.


    PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE. I thought I could get by just jumping between rigs to turn effects on and off, but even with otherwise identical rigs, I hear a "pop" that isn't acceptable for the purpose.

    Didn't know that Paul, guess it's time for me to check out Performance mode, I'm always hearing clicks and pops in Browse mode using the same amp/cab/settings, just making the move to a different patch to access different effects.

    Before Remote, I was using a FCB1010 w/ stock UNO chip. I was able to line up the effects and have them switch on/off with LEDs working showing effects state, with no issues. I have not heard any popping or clicking in browse mode while switching rigs or effects.

    Well, even setting aside "popping" on rig changes (it's actually more subtle than that, more like a slight dip in level) aside, this isn't going to be doable with a MIDI Moose, as just one example.


    It just makes sense to have a toggle value for these CC targets, just as there is presently a toggle for all stomps on CC 16 (which is of pretty limited value in practice.)

    Whippingpost (lots of Pauls in this thread LOL) - since the logic in the OP didn't generate as much interest as I expected (I still think it makes a world of sense but if you can't beat 'em, join 'em) I have a couple of follow-up questions for you:


    Did your FCB actually load the on/off states of each of the stomp slots when a new Rig was loaded? Was the UNO chip programmed specifically to receive NRPN from the KPA to pull this off? (Assuming you were running two MIDI cables - one IN, one OUT.) And did that FCB+UNO configuration allow you to control other MIDI gear in addition to the KPA? I understand there are two variations of replacement chips that can be used with the KPA, one of which excludes use with other gear.


    I don't really want an FCB; had one for years. They are a great value, but it's like hauling an aircraft carrier on stage. I'm just trying to figure out my options from here. Looks like the MIDI Moose is too inflexible, the Kemper Remote is expensive, unavailable, and not quite what I want (effect toggles are in the wrong place IMO.) Another day trying to make the KPA work and coming away with about half of what I need. Sigh.


    Easy f/w solution: a CC value that makes the stomps toggle, just like every real life stomp box has done for about 40 years now. Just sayin'.

    Mark, I used the FCB w/ stk UNO with just 1 MIDI cable to the KPA and 1 MIDi cable to the GR55.
    I used the free UNO Editor/ programmer form the FCB1010 Uno forum (I believe It's by Ed Dixon). I have it setup in stompbox mode, which allows 5 pc switches and 5 stompbox switches. By correcly setting up the stomps in the Editor the Led status on/off will follow the states on the Kemper. So you can turn on and off the stomps on the KPA just like real stompboxes. I only sent PC's to the GR55. . I'm not sure if this is answering your question, but hope so. Paul

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    I only sent PC's to the GR55. . I'm not sure if this is answering your question, but hope so. Paul


    Thanks, Paul. I think that answers my question, and I think the main point is that you only sent PC's to the GR-55 - never to the KPA.


    The problem that arises is if you want to change between rigs and have stomp switches work reliably. Without some (relatively sophisticated) feedback from the KPA back to the floorboard, the floorboard has no way of knowing whether the rig will load with a given effect on or off. Therefore, it can't predict whether your next stomp should send a CC 1 (on) or a CC 0 (off).


    Compare with the footswitch on your trusty Boss DS-1, or whatever. You press it, and it turns on if it is off; off if it is on. I'm proposing a CC value (other than 0 or 1) that would do this. KPA f/w is a very simple place to embed that logic, and then any MIDI controller in the world can be programmed to reliably control stomps/ post-amp FX.


    Nobody else has run into this?

    Sorry, I think you missunderstood. I send diferent PC's on different MIDI channels to the KPA and the GR55. In the editor it gives you the choice ( it does require you to program each patch) you can set whether you want the CC to send an on, off, or no change message. Hope this is clearer..
    To be honest I prefer the layout of the pedals on the FCB to the REMOTE as well. But the convenience factor of the REMOTE is awesome.
    I also liked being able to assign the FCB stomps to the upper or lower row
    I solved my issue with accidentally stepping on the Looper button by putting a piece of plastic tubing over the button so I coulden't push it.

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    In the editor it gives you the choice ( it does require you to program each patch) you can set whether you want the CC to send an on, off, or no change message. Hope this is clearer..


    I think so... So basically the FCB is pre-programmed to know which effects are on and off for any given rig, and pre-sets the stomp pedals accordingly? That's pretty cool. Alas, I can't do anything that sophisticated with the MIDI Moose and Event Processor. Just getting a toggle happening based on an incoming PC message is a bear. Doing that and setting all the stomp states (and having to reprogram the EP whenever I change my mind about a KPA setting...) out of the question.


    Not to beat a dead horse, but doesn't a simple "toggle the stomp" message make sense here? Am I taking crazy pills?


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    To be honest I prefer the layout of the pedals on the FCB to the REMOTE as well. But the convenience factor of the REMOTE is awesome.
    I also liked being able to assign the FCB stomps to the upper or lower row


    That's my issue in a nutshell. I think for most applications it would have made more sense to put the Rig change switches in the top row, and the assignable Stomp switches and Tap Tempo in the bottom row. I'm sure it's something I could get used to, but it's a lot of money for something I could get used to. :)

    Bump.


    I'm officially going through hell trying to make my old MIDI controller hop between CC and PC modes in order to work best with the KPA. If the KPA could use a single CC value to toggle the aforementioned CC#'s I could use a PC-only controller (and translation) and be done with it. There aren't a lot of options in the way of battery powered MIDI controllers with acceptable form-factor; the Tech 21 MIDI Moose is one example and in my case it's already paid for.


    I know it's not much of an ultimatum if I'm the only one who cares, and I know Kemper have their hands full, but this seems like such low-hanging fruit, so to speak. I'd like to hear ASAP whether Kemper thinks this is feasible (in the very near future) because I'm probably going to arrange to sell the KPA otherwise.


    Again, the request in summary, for all CC's relating to effects with on/off states:
    CC #x value 0: off
    CC# x value 1: on
    CC# x value [other]: toggle on/off

    Bump. Possible? Impossible? Possible but unlikely?


    On/ Off state of each effect is always "known" to the KPA, therefore KPA OS is a logical place to make a toggle option available. This is well-evidenced by the fact that the following is already included:


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    CC#16, any value - Toggles all Stomps between On and Off setting.


    Even an additional CC like this one, to Toggle post-Amp effects, would be helpful. But better still would be for each of the individual Stomp and FX CC's to respond to "any value" (excluding 0 and 1, which are required for On and Off respectively) to Toggle between On and Off.

    I use a Roland FC300 and it's the same situation, constantly looking back at my Kemper to see what's on/off on stage. Would love a solution, probably end up buying a Remote in the future but then I will have expression pedals to hook up every gig. sigh.....

    OK - I understand your frustration - but you have to understand what do you want achieve.
    You have two midi devices .
    Both of them don't know what is the state of the other.


    So you have several options:
    1. one of the device must ask the other - floorboard: "hey is this stomp on or off?'' - but the other may do not understand the question
    2.One of them may send info - KPA: "hey my stomp A is off now - please behave bad floorboard!!!!"


    There you may ask a question - do the Kemper have to implement all possible third party interfaces asking in their language?
    Or it is better to implement some protocol to implement 2cond option - and if you want to use your 3rd party controller you have to program it in this KPA language.


    2'nd option do exist:)


    And IMO the 1st also exist but you have to ask the KPA in his language about this and that ( floorboard:hey - can you please tell me this stomp is on or off? ) just simple commands.


    So in other words - what state is a toggle - if you send a one it will be toggle or zero?