Ethics and kemper! henning pauly with his axe in the throat

    Quote from pamplemousse

    yep, sure its different. I just say that modellers who copy amps circuit boards for recreating the sound of orginal amps will be taken to court before the KPA is for profiling


    as for my words, sometimes i am typing too fast. apologies


    @pamplemousse How's about learning Cockney rhyming slang? There are so many acceptable euphemisms for what we are talking about... ;)


    As for suing modellers I'm now 52 and I'm sure that that won't happen in my lifetime. Work backwards from the principle of sound generation. A sound can be generated either using tubes etc. or a modeller amp. The tubes are hard physical objects. The modeller works with software algorithms. Both use a loudspeaker, but that's where the similarity ends. If one states that the tube amp is unique, and protectable by copyright and (more rarely) patent standards, then so is the creative algorithm that simulates the amp. The sound produced per se cannot be protected (unless it's a piece of music, of course). The two ways of getting the sound are as different from one another as chalk and cheese. Both stand alone. What is more interesting IMO is the IP battles between tube amp builders themselves and modellers themselves.


    I'll get my coat...

    all agreed, I'm not going in that direction cause I know it won't happen. I should have said "IF this is happening, the KPA would be the last to go"


    and I don't know Cockney rhyming slang but that looks great. note i am not a native English speaker and even though I try to stay on top with foreign rude words and expressions (been an erasmus student, many international friends since 15 years, rude words are always fun in other languages), there is always new things to learn


    cheers

    Pamplemousse, I really appreciate the fact that you apologised so quickly. Thank you mate.


    It's an ugly word IMHO - harsh-sounding and has a bad vibe about it. Perhaps, because you're not a native-English speaker, it doesn't sound this way to you, or at the very least not as bad to your ears.


    At any rate, as I said, thank you.

    This whole ethics thing started with a bad approach, almost with the intention of some kind of trainwreck.


    LOL
    ya pussy is a much better word (has a nice ring to it), but i still
    don't get the rationality behind such concepts are profane or dirty or
    negative.


    If someone told me that pussy has to be a bad word, i would respond with something like


    If loving you is wrong I don't wanna be right
    If being right means being without you
    I'd rather live a wrong doing life


    Another
    example is a word for someone who performs fellatio as an insult.
    Ridiculous. The ethics of fellatio : An activity intended to cause
    pleasure on various levels. Most girls I know enjoy doing this, watching
    someone freak out from feeling good when they lay down a heap of
    pleasure on someone they care about. This outlook has lead to many
    positive experiences ;) A negative view is mistaken, but it is out
    there, why would anyone want to insult someone who likes pleasing
    people? Mean ppl suck ... hmm or mebbbe they dont ?( but i digress... no need for insults--it is free to be polite.


    As
    far as ethics here is a really simple answer. Crying to lawyers because
    someone made a better product is pathetic, and a hindrance to
    civilization.


    It helps to view ethics as belonging to all living
    things in some capacity, based on ability to understand. Simple animals
    are not unethical for trying to survive in the way they know how.
    For
    us, darwinian evolution has ended many thousands of years ago, and we
    now have a new set of ethics being part of a civilization, and the
    dominant species here.


    As far as the KPA goes, there is nothing
    inherently unethical about it. Henning's arguments relate ethics with
    money and loss (not even with a solid basis, but i only watched a bit of
    the first video, not trying to put him down, just got the sense of
    where it was going). He also loosely implied that ppl here were
    "stealing " ip and causing $$ harm. Firstly it would be copyright
    infringement or patent etc. not theft. he is intentionally misusing this
    word to be controversial, lets give him the benefit of the doubt, with a
    positive motive of generating interest. still could have been done in a
    better way.


    All he is saying is any tool is a weapon if you hold
    it the wrong way. I could take a KPA toaster and totally brain someone
    with it. It has the ability to be a dangerous weapon. Who knows, there
    might be some sketch ppl buying and returning amps after profiling.
    Individuals may act unethically anytime, but this is not the same as
    ethics within a group, or the whole concept of ethics.


    simple
    definition? it is the study of what is the best possible way of doing
    things that results in the best result for every one. this is
    idealistic, and is still the best direction to look to, even if it may
    not be possible now or ever. It will only lead to making things better.


    As
    for a better technology replacing a worse one, this is completely
    ethical. I would think this is so obvious that it does not need to be
    mentioned. Yet Henning's argument seems to lead to a kind of
    protectionism for amp builders. This is both unethical, and anti
    civilization/progress. I am all for amp builders doing well. If new and
    better disrupts this, it is due to the nature of reality, and this
    applies to everyone. Someone does something better than you? Simple
    answer, respond, adapt, compete.


    I think it was a kind of unfair
    cheap shot to imply that the KPA was remotely intended to harm anyone.
    It was conceived by a very creative and talented individual, who has a
    healthy pride in doing what others said was impossible, and making the
    product the best it can be, and even attaching his own name to it. Shows
    a very good ethic imho. Sure money is important in the real world, but
    it only goes so far, and there is a lot to be said for aiming to do your
    thing in the best way you can. this is ethical, and benefits everyone.
    Fire was invented not too log ago, and it has also caused its own share
    of harm, but you dont see any canted arguments about it being unethical.
    electricity replaced it, and is one of the top single indicators of
    quality of life today. to not use electricity and stick with fire
    illustrates things simply--it also can be dangerous and has been
    misused.


    Progress will always have growing pains, often
    impossible to predict, but development and growth of our civilization is
    far more important in the long term. How things are done is another
    matter, and is so broad. It is also up to all of us to think and decide
    how things are done, because it will define the reality we live in. This
    also includes Henning and his ideas, the first post here described him
    as a rising internet star, and I wish him all the success, and that he
    rises up to his star also, refines and improves his methods, keeps on
    asking, learning, and most importantly doing things in a positive manner
    that are progressive. he will have to if he wants to be anything close
    to a serious journalist, and not limit himself to some guy with a camera
    on youtube. if he does know better and is aiming to cause harm, it is an amusing
    irony that he tries to talk about ethics to do this. either way if he does not improve
    he will become known for being narrow, and lose even more credibility, with people concluding
    there is little value in his outlook, and not waste time with his statements.


    i guess we all solved henning and his question of ethics, so can rest easy now...hmmm wait a minute...


    Quote from tazwolf

    I built a radio telescope. Recorded the sounds of the universe, played them back to people , have i pirated the universe, omfg. Im a nice guy. Not a criminal. I wont survive prison , mercy please.


    im worried. has anyone seen him lately? he should not be talking about such things. do you have any idea what they do to ppl who build radio telescopes in prison?

    The guy's an idiot just after air-time. Anyone can spout some contentious nonsense, without even any real experience of a subject, and get people riled, and in doing so believe they are the object of attention.


    One word to sum it up:
    Nonsense

    Quote from Monkey_Man

    Pamplemousse, I really appreciate the fact that you apologised so quickly. Thank you mate.


    It's an ugly word IMHO - harsh-sounding and has a bad vibe about it. Perhaps, because you're not a native-English speaker, it doesn't sound this way to you, or at the very least not as bad to your ears.


    At any rate, as I said, thank you.


    damn, that was not my intention. I'm doubling apologies.
    I am going to read the whole urban dictionnary before i come back trying speaking as if I were a fluent Brit. Note I'd love to be fluent Brit guitar playin' as well.


    again, all apologies
    peace

    Quote from axekiller

    This guy is a dumb shit hypocrite with too much time on his hands and hearing him talk makes want too throttle him.


    Hi friends, do think it is allright for someone who expresses an opinion with which one disagrees, personally humiliate and disqualify.
    My 5 cents if we already talk about ethics.

    Quote from pamplemousse

    damn, that was not my intention. I'm doubling apologies.
    I am going to read the whole urban dictionnary before i come back trying speaking as if I were a fluent Brit. Note I'd love to be fluent Brit guitar playin' as well.


    again, all apologies
    peace


    Ha! No need to double 'em, mate, but I feel where you're coming from: The first time, you thought, "Gee, maybe that's not appropriate in this forum", and then after reading my post you re-evaluated the, well, value and tone of the word, no?


    Oh, and I'd love to be able to play like a Brit too... any damned Brit! LOL

    Ha ha... sorry mate.


    Didn't mean to make you feel like there was a giant magnifying glass hovering over you; it's just my nature to want to understand people, and my passion for this sometimes means I don't know where to stop.


    I'm guessing that when the sun starts setting the "victim's" hair on fire through the magnifying glass it's time to ease up.

    I agree with @Gandalf_The_Blond



    "As for a better technology replacing a worse one, this is completely ethical. I would think this is so obvious that it does not need to be
    mentioned. Yet Henning's argument seems to lead to a kind of protectionism for amp builders. This is both unethical, and anti
    civilization/progress."


    If you take a look at amp manufacturers like Hughes & Kettner and look at the awesome features they incorporate into their tube amps, multiple effects, presets, DI out and so much more - no one is commenting on their "ethics" on copying how modellers and digital devices operate with multiple effects and presets... it's not an issue. I appreciate this maybe a weak point but it's interesting to just have a quick look from a different angle.

    Ahoi there...


    Gosh, it's been ages since I'be written ANYTHING in any forum on the net,
    but I felt like chiming in on this "ethically problematic topic"...


    Dear Henning (should you read this...)...


    Let the amp maker do the profiling for me? No, thanks...I want to be in control
    of WHAT I profile with MY settings, optimized for my guitar, pickups, setup,
    string-gauge, tuning etc...(never really saw the point in, why folks jump on
    "commercial" 3rd party profiles anyway...(no offense meant, guys)...


    And dear Mister Pauly...
    If (specifically) the KPA REALLY is responsible for the case of "up to 8 out of 10"
    amps being returned to the dealers these days, because "evil people have stolen
    the sounds, to then return them for a full refund, while happily f***ing the amp-
    maker over..." ...then why the f*** haven't the amp-companies taken any steps to
    make their amps "unprofilable" by now? Shouldn't be hard to do...all you'd need
    is a small chip, controlling and "listening" into the input(s) of the amp, cutting it
    off, once the typical signature KPA-"noise" test-patterns are recognized, opening
    up again, once the "noise" is gone, leaving the Profiler with nothing to "listen to"
    to profile.


    Install the unit in a way that makes it impossible to remove or manipulate it, without
    a tech (or anyone else, who opens up the amp) being able to take notice. Viola!


    "Seal broken/Chip removed? Modded to be profilable again! You mod it, you keep it!"
    Wham! Problem solved. No more profiling (unless you alter the input circuit, forcing
    you to KEEP the amp, for YOU altered it, after having purchased it.


    Result? BOTH camps happy! Folks who want to "can" the sound their gear in an easily
    transportable, awesome unit (th KPA) AND the amp-companies, who have SOLD another
    unit for good...Just my 2 cents...


    To quote Trent Reznor on "The Downward Spiral"
    "Problems DO have solutions, you know..."


    Whoosh...
    I'm out...


    Dannyboy "Terraformer" Young

    Oh geez ... Seriously ... Technologies like tubes, single coil and humbucker pickups have been around for decades and are literally from the last century. In my mind time has surpassed all this analogue voodoo technology for good reasons. The guitar and guitar amplification industry lives in this unique 1960's bubble and many guitarists and manufacturers feed this bubble with the "vintage" argument.


    Just think about the fact that it is insane having to reduce 50 or 100 Watts amps (esp. when there is no master volume) using a load box to get the sound you like without killing your ears. It's simply antiquated technology, that comes with a lot of problems.


    So excuse me if I say "Give me a break" - I love the sound of tube amplifiers and for decades digital devices sounded like s#!t, but newer digital devices like the Axe FX & Kemper and other technology like Fishman Fluence pickups were bound to happen and for good reasons - it simply makes sense. I will not stay in the past - I want to get the sound I love and make music with it.


    You cannot patent EQ curves or a dynamic responses, nor the wanted characteristic of the originally unwanted distiortion (== noise) of an amplifier ... so again, give me a break.


    There was some noise reduction circuit(two diodes and resistor) in Peavey and there was some problems with profiling because of this circuit ;) This was not intended but what I mean there is no need for special detection devices ... or it can be a simple noise per 10 s circuit.
    I've just like your Idea as general - as a response to profile(or record in studio)-and-return practice.
    Simple switch (to bypass a circuit) behind a "no way to return" seal.

    Interesting concepts.
    I think a detection system would show how rare this really is. probably similar percentages to ppl buying kpa's to record and returning them...
    Pretty much any common amp on RE will be immune, unless it has some serious mojo, things working together much better than average.
    This applies to all amps, and the market for profiles seems to be people with skills, exceptionally good amps,
    rare, hard to find, expensive etc.
    I think there should be an initiative to preserve vintage/famous etc. amps, since this is good for music in many ways. Those amps will
    not last forever, and catching them at their best tone is something everyone should want.
    you cant be into vintage sounds and music, then turn around and complain it is dying out, not appreciated etc. if someone who cant afford 10k+ for such an amp gets a kpa and profiles of it. This is getting those sounds into the hands of more people.


    as far as prevention of profiling? i think it is probably not possible, since if it is observable it is copy-able--usually to a level where humans can't
    tell the difference. Also, any lock can always be picked. rarity, and futility are probably why such systems are not considered...it would be wasted money. if not it would have been tried by now


    I think a bigger worry with amp sales would be backlash against lockdown... 8/10 amp buyers do not own a kpa, lets be realistic. But they would not like to feel punished for sketch ppl buying, recording, then returning, which predates the kpa, and did not seem to generate that much concern.
    most stores seem to be able to handle this, probably by not offering returns to people who do this. Getting ID (esp for returns), creating accounts etc. is much easier, and also helps retailers get a feel for what people want. I generally dont buy from stores that don't have a return policy, or more accurately a laid back, hassle free things will get sorted method.
    shopping and retail would look much different if these 8/10 numbers were all over the place, which would only be a reasonable assumption if it was true for amps, why or what would stop it in other areas?


    I think the general loss of interest in shopping is a bigger concern, when a mouse click will do it.
    how often do people here go and sit in a music shop for x amount of time checking out amps after getting a kpa?
    but the marshal rep quoted in this thread seemed to have a decent grasp, mentioning something about modellers thru a large stack of cabs.... why the hell not? i don't think marshal needs henning giving them industry advice...


    simplest way i can think of putting it.. you area successful, talented amp maker. you will already be used to change and competition, even if it is something you never expected. you have a good rep, rnd $$, etc. do you a) rant an make up fractions or b) look at why something is doing well, figure out a way to work with it and make even more $$?