Thin wall of Mid range coming through 4x12 cab

    Does anyone know what I mean? There seems to be a sorta mid range blanket that comes through all my high gain rigs when I play through my splawn 4x12 with v30's with my power toaster.


    I felt like my Egnater Vengeance breathes a little better, so I thought, I'll just profile that. I used the di out of the head itself to do the profile and when I use that rig through the cab there feels like a mid blanket over it. And not just that rig but every high gain rig has it. Am I crazy? Could I be going ... tone deaf? :D:D


    It feels like they're choked up. It doesn't sound super bad or even blatantly noticeable, but it is on the high end of the subtle spectrum. Right on the brink of obvious. My speakers sound like they are whispering... kill me... lol


    If it's a certain frequency that needs to be cut out or tightened up I'm not gonna cry over an eq block, I've been using them a lot more lately, anyway. Chairs! :)

    Quote from spazmatron

    It could be the DI in your amp. Try profiling with micing the cab and see if you notice a difference instead of using the built in di, The di could be coloring the tone

    I'm definitely gonna try that, for one thing, I've never done a profile with a mic and cab.


    But, the di is an emulated cab out and captures the power amplifier section as well. The Kemper should be able to separate the cab sim and captured power section as well.


    Unless you're suggesting that even after the separation that it still colors the tone? Which could definitely be the case but that still wouldn't explain why all my other high gain rigs from factory rigs and right exchange have that same choked up mid range blanketed sound coming through the cab.


    On a side note, the egnater profile sounds really good with an IR from a different rig through headphones. :thumbup:

    • Has this always been the case when playing through a 4x12, or something that started recently? The reason I ask is because all of my "gainier" profiles sound similar through my 4x12 cabs. Some people seem to be able to dial them in, but so far I'm not one of them.
    Quote from Awesome_Elvis

    I'm definitely gonna try that, for one thing, I've never done a profile with a mic and cab.
    But, the di is an emulated cab out and captures the power amplifier section as well. The Kemper should be able to separate the cab sim and captured power section as well.


    Unless you're suggesting that even after the separation that it still colors the tone? Which could definitely be the case but that still wouldn't explain why all my other high gain rigs from factory rigs and right exchange have that same choked up mid range blanketed sound coming through the cab.


    On a side note, the egnater profile sounds really good with an IR from a different rig through headphones. :thumbup:


    Where there's your problem...


    See the bolded part of quoted text. You cannot have cabinet emulation active on the DI, if you are going to make a DI profile. I don't know if this feature can be deactivated/disabled on your amp. The reason your DI profile sounds like a wet blanket, when played through a traditional guitar cabinet, is because you effectively have two (2) cabinet EQs occurring, in series. A traditional guitar speaker has a natural and characteristic high frequency roll-off above approx. 3-4 kHz. If your amp's DI output already has built-in Cabinet Emulation, then it is already simulating the natural frequency roll-off of a guitar speaker. This is so you can record direct, and/or send preamp signal to Mixer/Front-of-House.


    So, again, what is happening is you have a DI profile which already has the EQ characteristics of a emulated guitar cabinet, and then you are putting it through another EQ filter when connecting it and playing it through a physical guitar cabinet. This is precisely why it sounds like mud, or the proverbial "wet blanket" syndrome.


    Hope this helps.


    Cheers,
    John

    Edited 4 times, last by Tritium ().

    Quote from Ragnarok
    • Has this always been the case when playing through a 4x12, or something that started recently? The reason I ask is because all of my "gainier" profiles sound similar through my 4x12 cabs. Some people seem to be able to dial them in, but so far I'm not one of them.

    Has always been the case for the most part yeah, I didn't notice it at first ,although I've had the nagging suspicion for a while. I definitely felt it and heard when I made this new profile. I wonder if it's the kempers power section at all. It's hard to tell on crappy cabs and sometimes through greenbacks I don't notice it or its not there but most of my cabs have been v30's and when I crank it up it becomes very apparent after hearing a traditional amp and then the Kemper through the same cab directly after.


    Another idea I've been having is to just get frfr speakers put in my can, leave cab Sim on and have it like a blank canvas. If I lose some highs due to lack of a high frequency driver I'll be OK with that. The foh mix is gonna get all that anyways.

    Hello @Awesome_Elvis,


    Did you read my reply, above? The problem is definitely the Cab Emulation that is present in the DI output (Record Line Out) of your Egnater Vengeance.


    From the Egnater Vengeance manual (page 10):



    Cheers,
    John

    I think we may have a communication error, I apologize for that. Please allow me to re-clarify as I feel that some of the common terminology might have been misrepresented on my part.


    The profile I made with the cab emulated di from my egnater was made as a full profile into the Kemper with the cabinet section of the profiling process selected. Even though the amps di sends the full pre power amp section, it also sends the cab emulated signal with the XLR out on the back of the amp and there's no way to turn it off. It kinda has that PureCab sound if you listen to it with headphones, frfr, monitors etc. Anyways, if I turn off the cab sim while running that profile though one of those options, it will sound harsh and terrible as you would expect most profiles to sound (like a ds-1 straight to the board). Since the emulated out is cab simulated, my idea was that by making a full profile with the cab the Kemper would be able to separate them, which it does, mostly. I've made profiles before with the No Cabinet box selected even though I was running the signal though a cab simulator red box. I also use to do the double cab sim with a single cab simple signal mixed together and then failed trying to run that through a cab when i had a bunch of multi fx boards. So I know it's not a double cab eq problem, that much I can definitely tell.


    With monitor cab off ,running this profile through the 4x12 I play the egnater through, it sounds really close minus the blanket part. This blanket is more like a thin wall of mid range, like a pillow case or a sheet of wax paper.


    Any who, the main point of the thread was less about the egnater profile and more about how ALL of my high gain rigs, with the cab off and/or monitor off while running the powered toaster through a 4x12 have this tiny mid wall blanket sheet paper tone hoarder. The egnater profile part was just for back story on how I narrowed it down. I was a/b-ing different profiles against the egnaters tone through the same cab when I got the idea I should profile the egnater if I like it so much ( if you love it so much, why don't you marry[profile] it? ;). That's when i for sure noticed it.


    But still, and in good faith, I'm gonna make another profile but with an actual mic and see what happens. Hope this help clarify and I'm sorry if this was confusing. Thanks for helping, I love this community! Please forgive for this lengthy repost lol

    Quote from Awesome_Elvis

    I think we may have a communication error, I apologize for that. Please allow me to re-clarify as I feel that some of the common terminology might have been misrepresented on my part.
    The profile I made with the cab emulated di from my egnater was made as a full profile into the Kemper with the cabinet section of the profiling process selected. Even though the amps di sends the full pre power amp section, it also sends the cab emulated signal with the XLR out on the back of the amp and there's no way to turn it off. It kinda has that PureCab sound if you listen to it with headphones, frfr, monitors etc. Anyways, if I turn off the cab sim while running that profile though one of those options, it will sound harsh and terrible as you would expect most profiles to sound (like a ds-1 straight to the board). Since the emulated out is cab simulated, my idea was that by making a full profile with the cab the Kemper would be able to separate them, which it does, mostly. I've made profiles before with the No Cabinet box selected even though I was running the signal though a cab simulator red box. I also use to do the double cab sim with a single cab simple signal mixed together and then failed trying to run that through a cab when i had a bunch of multi fx boards. So I know it's not a double cab eq problem, that much I can definitely tell.


    With monitor cab off ,running this profile through the 4x12 I play the egnater through, it sounds really close minus the blanket part. This blanket is more like a thin wall of mid range, like a pillow case or a sheet of wax paper.


    Unfortunately, the KPA cannot successfully implement it's CabDriver algorithm when a DI profile is made which has a baked in cabinet emulation. In fact, this is explained in the Kemper Reference Manual, in the section about how to make a Direct Amp/Merged Profile.


    Quote

    A Direct Profile will be taken by feeding the output of the reference device directly or via DI box into the Return Input of the Profiler, rather than capturing the sound by microphone. No further preparation is needed. During the process, the Profiler will automatically detect the character of a Direct Profile and disable the Cabinet Module accordingly. But not every DI box is suitable for this job. As the DI box has to be placed between power amplifier and speaker cabinet it needs to be capable to handle such signal levels. Some DI boxes are only suitable for line level signals. Those cannot be used. If the DI box should offer speaker simulation or attenuation, these features need to be inactive.
    Some DI boxes don't allow complete deactivation.


    Either, you are going to have to make a regular Studio Profile (with mic'd cabinet), or, you will need a suitable DI Box, such as the Behringer ULTRA-DI model DI600P.


    I realize this may not help your more general issue...but I did want to clarify the importance of not having any type of Cabinet Simulation existing in the signal chain of the amp that is being profiled.


    Cheers,
    John

    Quote from Tritium

    Unfortunately, the KPA cannot successfully implement it's CabDriver algorithm when a DI profile is made which has a baked in cabinet emulation. In fact, this is explained in the Kemper Reference Manual, in the section about how to make a Direct Amp/Merged Profile.

    The section you quote from the manual does not talk about the cabdriver algorithm, which is irrelevant for Direct Amp profiles.

    Quote from Michael_dk

    The section you quote from the manual does not talk about the cabdriver algorithm, which is irrelevant for Direct Amp profiles.

    Hi Michael,


    The CabDriver algorithm is relevant if the Kemper does not successfully auto-detect the character of the preamp signal, and thus the absence of a cabinet. In this case, I strongly suspect that the KPA analyzed the frequency response of the Vengeance's DI signal, noted the high frequency roll-off (due to the cabinet emulation), and incorrectly determined that a cabinet was involved. I understand this has been a problem for others, in the past, when trying to make a profile from a DI signal. See link to thread, below:


    https://www.kemper-amps.com/fo…-direct-profile/?pageNo=1



    In any event, I quoted the section from the Reference Manual mainly to show that the KPA is looking for a pure signal, during a profile process. If there is any kind of speaker simulation already present in the signal to be profiled...the results will less then ideal, and more than likely unusable.


    Cheers,
    John

    Edited 2 times, last by Tritium ().

    Tritium is right, a cab simulation will definitely be the problem you are facing. I don't think it is similar to micing a cab either, it's a DI and it has a cab in it. That could be confusing for what the Kemper "sees". I have a feeling that there will be more cab character baked into the tone than if you had profiled with a mic and then turned off the cab section.


    Sounds like a test... for someone else!

    Thanks for all the constructive info regarding the profile I made with egnater.


    However, I must stress that this thread is not about this one profile.


    No one is talking about the other 200 high gain profiles I have the same problem with.


    And again I must stress that even though I used the XLR out of the egnater, it is NOT a DI profile.


    Hope this helps to clarify.

    Quote from spazmatron

    Crazy question but is cab emulation turned on and have you tried resetting to the default settings.

    Do you mean , is the cab emulation turned on when I'm running profiles with my powered toaster through my 4x12 cab? If yes, then no I turn that off with monitor cab off button.


    There have been times when I got a decent sound by turning it off and under the cab section ,turning themail character knob all the way down and putting the high and low shift at zero, then turning the actual module off.


    what do you mean by default settings ( character and high low shift at zero)?