Kemper vs. Real Amp Test - Cameron CCV

    Quote from SonicExporer

    Look, you guys are on fringe of the weeds still and are distracting from the core issue with the KPA being discussed. You either aren't getting it, or are trying to intentionally divert from the main topic. I know what I've said to be correct, when I have time at some point I'll put something together to demonstrate what I'm referring to. Furthermore a single 3.5K bump isn't in the area of guitar frequencies being discussed. You are looking at two areas simultaenously - one in the sub 1K and and one over 1K. For example 500 & 1.8K . 3.5K would be considered top end on a guitar tone (distortion harmonics aside). Sound perception is the resultant not the summing math.

    Sorry, but you're wrong. You can boost any frequency you like and the result will be the same. That's a fact. I'll be glad to post all 4 tracks and you can try it yourself. Name a frequency, the amount to boost (in dB) and I'll be glad to post a follow-up demonstration.

    @SonicExporer I highly doubt either @Michael_dk or @ColdFrixion "are trying to intentionally divert from the main topic". I might not agree all the time with Michael (impulses :D ) but can tell you hes very knowledgeable and helpful. Curious Sonic, do you have a soundcloud page where I can check out your music or mixes?


    IMHO It has been said that when profiled properly, you cannot tell the amp and the Kemper apart. I'd love to hear or see a video where this is the case. Not hating on the Kemper at all. Actually at this point in time I am absolutely thrilled with the Kemper and the progress I am making. My point is I want to hear it for myself and learn the proper way.

    Quote from Klappy

    Here's a thought on what might be causing the issue: The KPA algorithm isn't designed to capture reverberation. Even a close miked amp isn't immune to reverberations, modes, and early reflections completely. Maybe these subtle cues are responsible for the loss of 3D and body, effectively making the Kemperized sound more like jt was miked in an anechoic chamber.

    Possibly. I suspect its unlikely the main culprit, but possible.


    I'd wager Kemper is well aware by now of what is causing the issue we are hearing. And if they had a one-size-fits all correction they probably would have implemented it by now. That however does not mean it isn't correctable after the fact on the KPA. And in fact that may be part of the very vision. There may be a number of different ways to more closely dial in the KPA after the fact (or refine during profiling) that are dependent on the particular rig/settings being profiled. This would explain why it can't be corrected during profiling because there is something going on that varies from rig to rig. If we had some understanding, at least some post-tweak recommendations, or profile-refining tips, we could probably dial things in more closely. But without some guidance there are just way too many permutations to chase. We are all just guessing. And if it turns out there is simply no way to noticeably improve things then we should be leveled with so users don't go in circles trying to attain something that simply can't be achieved yet.

    I agree with Shreck. No one is trying to divert from the topic, they are just disagreeing with an aside that you brought up. If there is a miscommunication here, it might be best to let the multitracking issue rest until Sonic can post his example. But that onus is on Sonic now to make some files, since ColdFrixion demonstrated his point.


    Shreck, I can't point to any specific examples online, but in my experience, lower gain classic rock sounds with less bass (and chugga chugga) show the effect much less, to the point that I didn't notice it in my own profiles. But I'll admit that I'm not as scrutinizing as I used to be with sounds (kind of liberating actually). That being said, I still can't deal with whatever deficiencies are in the Helix and Axe, so everyone has their sensitive spots.

    I hate emojis, but I hate being misunderstood more. :)

    Like 1

    I put together a blind test to show why I think a lot of the issues are EQ oriented. These aren't my recordings, but each of the three samples below consists of two recordings of the same tune back to back. Pick which one you think is the Kemper and which one you think is the amp. I took the liberty of adding a bit of EQ to the Kemper clips to equalize the differences as much as possible:


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    Same here ... that's why i'm begging for a "cream" knob ... if it is not possible to do it within the profiling process adding that characteristic with a knob would simply do the trick ...
    It is easier said then done sure but the fuzzyness or cream is possible with digital stuff, the helix nails that very well (but overall it is not as "real" sounding then the kemper imo)

    Quote from ColdFrixion

    I put together a blind test to show why I think a lot of the differences can be dealt with using EQ. These aren't my recordings, but each of the three samples below consists of two recordings of the same tune back to back. Pick which one you think is the Kemper and which one you think is the amp. I took the liberty of adding a bit of EQ to the Kemper clips to equalize the differences as much as possible:

    The initiative is appreciated. However, instead of bringing new clips into the picture for which nobody even knows if they portray the same shortcomings found in the OP's clips (and the video), it would be more helpful to do as follows:


    Take the two clips from the OP and see if you can make the KPA version sound like the real amp using just EQ. Then post back the clips and let thread participants comment on how close they perceive them to be. No need to hide which is which. And include the changes made to the EQ'ing so everybody can see the extent of EQ'ing applied. The idea isn't to guess clips or to even to expect to get them 100% identical. Rather it is find & share solutions that help improve things and get them as close as possible.


    Sonic

    Quote from SonicExporer

    The initiative is appreciated. However, instead of bringing new clips into the picture for which nobody even knows if they portray the same shortcomings found in the OP's clips (and the video), it would be more helpful to do as follows:
    Take the two clips from the OP and see if you can make the KPA version sound like the real amp using just EQ. Then post back the clips and let thread participants comment on how close they perceive them to be. No need to hide which is which. And include the changes made to the EQ'ing so everybody can see the extent of EQ'ing applied. The idea isn't to guess clips or to even to expect to get them 100% identical. Rather it is find & share solutions that help improve things and get them as close as possible.

    I actually did just that and posted it on two separate pages earlier in this thread, however either nobody noticed or didn't feel like commenting. Here's the clip again(below). It's the same order as the original(KPA first, amp 2nd). However, I also think it's important to have clips that don't give an indication of which is which in order to prevent confirmation bias. And yes, the new clips did exhibit the same attributes that have been discussed here prior to EQ'ing.


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    Quote

    however either nobody noticed or didn't feel like commenting.

    hehe...communication breakdown...


    Thanks dear @ColdFrixion


    Actually I am following this thread from the beginning and I was thinking since the first post (original clip) this just cant be that I can hear the difference between the profile and the amp even through my cheap laptop-speaker..


    There is an old saying in my language.."if you want to find something bad into someone/something you will find it no matter what it takes and no matter the cost".. ;)


    I said it in another thread..so many bad guitar recording on so many (in the meanwhile "re-mastered") classic rock/blues albums and no one ever questioned this "taboo" blaming the legend guitar player,producer,engineer which are "untouchables" today in our times with dozen of platin/gold albums..


    But if we find a not sufficiently recorded profile for our profiler it MUST be the tool and not just the" human factor"..


    The Kemper needs more work.Sure also from the KPA-team but most of all from us..the users..

    Honestly, I think any deficiencies between a profile and the original amp are sufficiently small enough to not be a concern when recording. I mean, yes, if you A/B a profile against the original amp you may pick up on some differences, but it's only when you compare it with the original using a critical ear that you're likely to notice. If you listen to most profiles in a mix without the original amp to compare it against, no one's going to think twice.

    the second one is the real amp right and the first one always the kemper ?


    and now do the same with a very fuzzy and creamy amp ... it will not work, not even close

    i guess you'd need a fuzzy amp now :D otherwise you can not hear the difference but i already posted an example of that fuzzy amp of mine which is not possible to profile because it is always off and always in the midrange area ... and sometimes the gainstructure is completely off


    was i right with my assumption ?

    Quote from Bommel

    i guess you'd need a fuzzy amp now :D otherwise you can not hear the difference but i already posted an example of that fuzzy amp of mine which is not possible to profile because it is always off and always in the midrange area ... and sometimes the gainstructure is completely off


    was i right with my assumption ?

    Do you have a fuzz sample with the cab?

    what about the blind test ? was i right? ... i'd have to everything again ...maaaan :D

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    with the recit and softshaper it is possible to shape the sound more into a fuzzlike sound but the gain structure and -like always- the saturation in the lower and core mids is different ... and guitars are a midrange instrument so the better the mids the better it will sound overall ... i use real overdrives infront of the kemper then that saturation thing is almost gone ...

    Quote from Bommel

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    That's with the cabinet enabled or just the amp/no cab?

    this is the di track

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    the version above is with the same cab on both sounds