Amp Volume And Cabs

    Guys, help me understand something please...


    It is a fact that as a real amp is turned up, the speakers and amp interact differently and sound differently (beyond just the level of sound changing).


    I would therefore assume the volume setting in the KPA's Amp section would be used to control this aspect. In other words, as you turn up the volume setting the tone and feel should change along with the sound level, just as would be the case with a real amp and cab. Makes logical sense, right?


    However, am I to understand this is NOT the way the Amp volume setting is designed? It only impacts the sound level and nothing else?


    Thanks,


    Sonic

    Respectfully, and regardless of what ever it's supposed to do, what is your experience with turning it? Did you turn it way up? Adjusting various parameters coinciding with it? In other words, are you playing around with it?

    Quote from Michael_dk

    The volume controls are simply volume, yes. The characteristics of the sound itself when the amp is cranked must be captured during the profiling process.

    Thanks, that's what I thought the messaging was, just wanted to double check. Thing is, I actually DO seem to hear a difference when raising the Amp volume (as compared to rig volume or overall volume). It is not major, but my ears detect a difference when raising volume above the area of +2. Others have mentioned this as well. Which is why I wanted to double-check what exactly the intended design was.


    That said, why in the world would the Amp volume control not be modeled to impact the tone like a real amp volume does? The profiling process surely could vary the signal volume during profiling to learn how the cab reacts to volume alterations. And then apply that logic/curve to the Amp volume in the profile. Even if it isn't perfect, it would still be a valuable behavior, and one that is logical,whereas right now the designed behavior make no sense IMO. (Maybe I'm missing something ?? )


    This function and the dual cab feature I posted are really important for proper tone replication/flexibility when recording. Re-profiling is not a good answer, especially for those who rely on other profiles (which is a lot of people).


    Sonic

    Quote from SonicExporer

    That said, why in the world would the Amp volume control not be modeled to impact the tone like a real amp volume does? The profiling process surely could vary the signal volume during profiling to learn how the cab reacts to volume alterations. And then apply that logic/curve to the Amp volume in the profile. Even if it isn't perfect, it would still be a valuable behavior, and one that is logical,whereas right now the designed behavior make no sense IMO. (Maybe I'm missing something ?? )


    This function and the dual cab feature I posted are really important for proper tone replication/flexibility when recording. Re-profiling is not a good answer, especially for those who rely on other profiles (which is a lot of people).

    Well, first of all, the profiler's niche is profiling; not modeling. I know you realize this, but maybe you don't understand the implications 100%. From the onset, the basic design of the profiler is completely different.


    The profiler DOES vary the signal volume during profiling - I think for most, if not all of the test signal types. But I don't think it could possibly determine which parts of an amp react differently to this. Furthermore, the profiler doesn't have any power over how you've dialed in your amp. I'm sure the signal it sends through the amp is at time louder than most guitars (all guitars), but that cannot possibly translate into the same effect as turning the master volume of the amp up.

    Quote from SonicExporer

    That said, why in the world would the Amp volume control not be modeled to impact the tone like a real amp volume does? The profiling process surely could vary the signal volume during profiling to learn how the cab reacts to volume alterations. And then apply that logic/curve to the Amp volume in the profile. Even if it isn't perfect, it would still be a valuable behavior, and one that is logical,whereas right now the designed behavior make no sense IMO. (Maybe I'm missing something ?? )

    yes, you are.
    the axiom of the Profiler is:
    Profile at the sweet spots(s) of your amp - then have this sweet spot available at all gain and volume levels.


    It's a very real world, practical approach, that makes a lot of sense in the "time is most precious"-environment of the music industry.


    If you want to alter the behaviour of a Profile, use Power Sagging to add Power Stage saturation and Tube Shape to seamlessly go from preamp distortion to power tube distortion.


    Keep an open mind, use your ears, don't overthink.


    ...actually most people I know in the industry are more interested in solutions - of which the Profiler offers many -, than in perceived, almost optional, self-imposed problems. ;)


    sorry to be so direct, but there has been a definitive pattern to most of your posts.


    please don't respond with a lengthy answer, at least not right away, let it sink in - I'm trying to help :)

    Quote from Michael_dk

    Well, first of all, the profiler's niche is profiling; not modeling. I know you realize this, but maybe you don't understand the implications 100%. From the onset, the basic design of the profiler is completely different.
    The profiler DOES vary the signal volume during profiling - I think for most, if not all of the test signal types. But I don't think it could possibly determine which parts of an amp react differently to this. Furthermore, the profiler doesn't have any power over how you've dialed in your amp. I'm sure the signal it sends through the amp is at time louder than most guitars (all guitars), but that cannot possibly translate into the same effect as turning the master volume of the amp up.


    I'l try to clarify things a bit more....


    Agreed, there are a number of variables in play, but at least the cab side volume impacts could be inspected during profiling. Especially if the profile process is already varying the signal, as you indicate. The KPA could start with the currently chosen profiling level and then run a signal from 0 to that level, and easily "learn' how the cab tends to react, and then provide a linear interpolation of that coloration to the Amp volume knob (in addition of course to the level of the sound being altered). I suspect this should not be difficult at all.


    Again, this feature combined with the Dual Cab feature I already posted would be a very valuable addition to the tone shaping options in the KPA. And bring the device that much closer to the real amp experience. Not to mention helping the KPA remain competitive. IMO these kinds of core tone features enhancements are more valuable than things like delays.


    As for the intent of most KPA users, I guess we'll just have to disagree. I believe the vast majority are looking to rely on existing profiles rather than doing profiles themselves.


    Sonic


    ( * Update * - right as this posted I just noticed Don had responded, there was no disrespect intended)

    I am so happy that the Kemper behaves as it does!


    I look for a profile that I like (imported or from myself) and do not need to deal with changing sound as I increase the volume apart from minor changes in presence/treble and bass in order to compensate fletcher munson.


    I have the same sound during rehearsal at high volume and while I compose songs with my mates at low volume. With a real amp this was always source of big frustration and less inspiration!


    Also here no disrespect meant, but some of us should maybe spend more time playing, practising and creating great sounds and music with this great piece of gear, rather than wasting hours and hours with many unimportant and selfimposed tiny problems.


    We need to enjoy more, the kemper deserves it, and we owe it to ourselves and to our much too short lives!

    I wasn't talking about the rig volume or the master volume. Just the Amp section volume.


    This isn't trivial stuff. If the KPA is to truly live up to it's marketing hype and continue to be taken seriously as a professional recording tool, then both the mfr and community should embrace constructive input to help it improve and evolve. If along the way someone doesn't like a particular discussion, then simply hit the back button and move on, and knock off the personal innuendos and implicit bullying.


    Mod, feel free to lock the thread, IMO there probably isn't anything more constructive on topic to be added here.


    Sonic

    Quote from SonicExporer

    If the KPA is to truly live up to it's marketing hype and continue to be taken seriously as a professional recording tool, then both the mfr and community should embrace constructive input to help it improve and evolve.

    there is no marketing hype - our claims were proven again and again to be true by countless pros all over the world: artists, engineers, producers etc.


    the Profiler is already one of the top pro solutions for guitar tone in the studio or live and has been since it's release in 2012, I seriously doubt that's going to change.


    show me one product that has a better track record of listening to it's user base (and by the way, with user base I don't mean this forum exclusively, obviously the forum member are part of the user base, but the user base is bigger than this) and implementing features and doing stuff like constantly adding great new content - for free by the way.
    The community even had input on the design of the Remote.


    I mean, we even have a whole section of the forum dedicated to constructive user input, called "Feature Requests".

    Don,


    With respect, consider taking a deep breath and pause. ;)


    Whether intentional or not, the marketing messaging being sent by Kemper is that people can buy the KPA and achieve professional quality results using existing profiles with KPA, indistinguishable from real amps, etc. For the vast majority of users, the fact you can profile your own rig is received more as an added benefit than a primary usage. Sincerely, this is indeed the message being received whether it is intentional or not. This theme is unmistakable IMO. Yet if people raise tone concerns that have no easy resolution, the party line suddenly changes to the effect of "the KPA is a profiler, not a modeler, go profile the sound you want." That's simply not a fair response to customers who have dropped $2K+ on Kemper product. Of course top studio guys who use the KPA probably like it because by definition they already have all the high end gear and setting to profile with. And already have customers bringing in gear to record with, which, by profiling, potentially saves both the studio customer and producer a lot of time & headache. So sure, in those extremely narrow scenarios the profiling aspect can be of key importance. But that is an incredibly narrow aspect of the overall KPA market, an aspect which is NOT representative of the much broader target customers being marketed to.



    I'm happy to discuss this further via PM. But as I said, there seems nothing new constructive on topic to add here, so feel free to lock the thread.


    Sonic

    Quote from DonPetersen

    exactly, and that's just what unit ships with: hundreds of authentic sounding amp tones.

    This is where we disagree. For some applications (professional recording for one) there are issues somewhere between the KPA and the profiles for certain types of tones. There are a number of users who have encountered and demonstrated this, and thus far we aren't getting much in the way of answers. Every time we try to start working at it on the forum, others chime in and derail the conversations. And there is too often a similar theme when people try to propose very sensible features. Rather than being taken constructively they too often seem to be received or twisted into a negative critique.

    Quote from SonicExporer

    This is where we disagree. For some applications (professional recording for one) there are issues somewhere between the KPA and the profiles for certain types of tones. There are a number of users who have encountered and demonstrated this, and thus far we aren't getting much in the way of answers. Every time we try to start working at it on the forum, others chime in and derail the conversations. And there is too often a similar theme when people try to propose very sensible features. Rather than being taken constructively they too often seem to be received or twisted into a negative critique.

    Well, the fact is, that you have stated again and again that you don't like the results that you are getting. This does not imply the tones that are in there aren't good or authentic. Plenty of professional producers have put out albums they are happy with that where recorded with the kemper.
    Let me put it another way: I can't get good results with a triple rectifier. No matter what knobs i turn, the sound i produce don't please me. That does not mean the product is bad, it's just not for me. Plenty of high profile guitar players make this amp work wonderfully. I don't. I don't go onto a mesa boogie forum and try to tell mesa what they need to change in their rectifier circuit so i like it. I just buy another amp.
    If all the threads you created are truly your opinions and problems you face, it might be time to search another solution. Although i can understand the points you're making, you have to understand, that you posting here will change nothing in how the kemper works. The current state of firmware is where the devs want it to be in terms of amp sounds and 99.9% of Users agree its great. So, it won't change. That might be bad for you, but there are plenty of high quality solutions out there.

    Quote from SonicExporer

    This is where we disagree. For some applications (professional recording for one) there are issues somewhere between the KPA and the profiles for certain types of tones. There are a number of users who have encountered and demonstrated this, and thus far we aren't getting much in the way of answers. Every time we try to start working at it on the forum, others chime in and derail the conversations. And there is too often a similar theme when people try to propose very sensible features. Rather than being taken constructively they too often seem to be received or twisted into a negative critique.

    Nearly all of those people say 'it doesn't sound like my amp in the room'. Well... duh, it's not meant to. I also had this issue for a short while. I was expecting an upgrade to the 11R and what I got was completely different, it threw me.


    The vast majority of people, including industry experts and guitar virtuosos like Paul Gilbert and superstars like Matt Bellamy swear by the thing.


    From my own point of view, I can hear irregularities in pitch and timing very easily. People tell me it's freaky that I can hear the most minute of issues with timing when recording that they can only see when zooming in on the waveform. I can hear very little difference between the Kemper and the real amp and even then normally these issues are rectified during the refining stage.


    The thing is amazing, perhaps it just isn't for you for whatever reason.