Native WAV IR support!

    Hey Kemper
    Would be amazing if Kemper could use longer WAV file IRs that come from third parties like OwnHammer etc rather than have to mangle them through CabMaker
    The resulting files are markedly less high quality with curtailed frequency response and considerably less detail than the original WAV files and as a consequence do not show Kemper off at it's best.


    I know the theory is that you should used merged packs and be happy with the capture provided but as Kemper allows the creation of Direct Profiles it's obvious that you entertained the idea that people might want the flexibility to be able to change cab/mic combinations.


    This would be an small but outstanding bit of flexibility and take Kemper to the next level with the best tones and the same IR flexibility as AXFX and Helix


    Thank you


    Matt

    Quote from NEUK01642

    ... rather than have to mangle them through CabMaker

    Does CabMaker really mangle them, Matt? I know it uses a shortened form of the originals, but Kemper's implementation, at least the inner workings thereof, is an unknown quantity, isn't it?


    Quote from NEUK01642

    The resulting files are markedly less high quality with curtailed frequency response and considerably less detail than the original WAV files

    Is this provable or just an assumption? IIRC the length is shortened, but the duration's reduction cannot conceivably affect high frequencies 'cause we're talking, what, 0.2 seconds or something like that? Granted, this would not allow frequencies below 5Hz (5 cycles / second) to be accurately-represented, but even if it were 20 or 30Hz, it wouldn't matter, surely?


    "Considerably-less detail..."? I don't know about that, Matt. :/


    EDIT 1:
    I stand corrected. See post #9.


    EDIT 2:
    I no longer stand corrected. See OP's Post #50.

    Quote from Monkey_Man

    Does CabMaker really mangle them, Matt? I know it uses a shortened form of the originals, but Kemper's implementation, at least the inner workings thereof, is an unknown quantity, isn't it?

    Is this provable or just an assumption? IIRC the length is shortened, but the duration's reduction cannot conceivably affect high frequencies 'cause we're talking, what, 0.2 seconds or something like that? Granted, this would not allow frequencies below 5Hz (5 cycles / second) to be accurately-represented, but even if it were 20 or 30Hz, it wouldn't matter, surely?
    "Considerably-less detail..."? I don't know about that, Matt. :/

    It's not the first I've heard of Cab Maker changing the sonic quality of an IR. I think @schreckmusic dealt with this previously, which was part of a thread that I believe included an admin, so perhaps he has more insight.

    Quote from Monkey_Man

    Does CabMaker really mangle them, Matt? I know it uses a shortened form of the originals, but Kemper's implementation, at least the inner workings thereof, is an unknown quantity, isn't it?

    Is this provable or just an assumption? IIRC the length is shortened, but the duration's reduction cannot conceivably affect high frequencies 'cause we're talking, what, 0.2 seconds or something like that? Granted, this would not allow frequencies below 5Hz (5 cycles / second) to be accurately-represented, but even if it were 20 or 30Hz, it wouldn't matter, surely?
    "Considerably-less detail..."? I don't know about that, Matt. :/

    Yes. Cab maker changes the sound of IR.

    And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.

    Like 2

    Have done tests on that.. And yes, they are not the same imo. It's why I don't use IR in kpa, most often, but in my daw with direct profiles (let alone that it's a pain in the butt to be loading irs to kpa In a regular basis)

    My brain can only hold a certain amount of information before I forget.
    There could be information I leave out unintentionally.


    I did many test of IRs. All different lengths. If the IR was not created using a pure impulse it did not convert correctly. IR's made with a swine wave are too long and get compressed in length to fit. The result is an altered frequency response. Not in a good way. Highs and lows were both elevated and mids are lowered and/or raised.


    Also keep in mind you have to use a direct profile if you are matching it to an IR loader plugin to see how accurate. Studio profiles when you turn off the cab contain parts of the frequency response of the tone. There's no clear separation.


    I could have mixed up information as this was a long time ago. I never use IRs now as cabs sound way more dynamic. It's just a matter of shapping the tone in post.

    How many kemper commercial sellers include A/B tests to real source tone with their packs? One in 10? One in 50? Anybody?


    Similarly it has not been a standard practice for those selling IRs.


    Thing is making IR can involve a bunch of techniques not always with similarly good results. So not surprising if there is indeed more variance in terms of results (profiling can vary too, but on average probably not as much), let alone accuracy not being the most important goal for the maker, often times (can use "enhancements" to push IR towards certain direction, which many do).


    But it's not very difficult to do such a test where accuracy is the end goal and at least demonstrate how close an IR can be to the real counterparts, then compare to kemper cab. Done it quite a few times, but didn't think of putting a test together. IR vs converted to kemper format test even easier.


    PS: i Don't use pure cab

    Edited once, last by Dimi84 ().

    Quote from schreckmusic

    I did many test of IRs. All different lengths. If the IR was not created using a pure impulse it did not convert correctly. IR's made with a swine wave are too long and get compressed in length to fit. The result is an altered frequency response. Not in a good way. Highs and lows were both elevated and mids are lowered and/or raised.

    Yeah, I'd expect that from sine-wave-produced ones, Ant. I was picturing impulse-produced IR's in my mind's eye.


    Quote from MementoMori

    It's not the first I've heard of Cab Maker changing the sonic quality of an IR.

    Yeah, I've heard it too, D, but didn't realise it had been verified.


    Quote from Kim_Olesen

    Yes. Cab maker changes the sound of IR.

    I always respect your opinion, Kim, so thank you for that mate.


    Quote from Dimi84

    Have done tests on that.. And yes, they are not the same imo. It's why I don't use IR in kpa, most often, but in my daw with direct profiles (let alone that it's a pain in the butt to be loading irs to kpa In a regular basis)

    Is there anything you haven't done tests on, Dimi? LOL Thanks for the info, mate.


    Seems like I'll have to stand corrected; thanks guys.


    EDIT:
    I no longer stand corrected. See OP's Post #50.

    I don't think there'd be a consensus about the matter though.


    Just like profiling accuracy overall I am more on the "skeptical" camp when converting IRs.


    But I am sure many will not notice much of a difference... And if they do, it won't matter to them anyway, because the audience wouldn't know either and a blind test with smooth transitions, playing changing would confuse listeners (and that seems to be a common denominator).


    For me personally, just like I've said on other issues, I do think "trivial" details can matter. Differences between all kinds of gear in your signal can Be small. And yet still some people care, a lot, others not.


    If an IR conversion changes the tone more than, say, going from an fishman fluence to emg 81, then I will care, and just use the IR in daw OR an external hardware IR loader. And that's not about the tone just changing but changing for the worse.

    Edited 4 times, last by Dimi84 ().

    @Monkey_Man It's a bit of an addiction to test things. One of my best friends for example has a kemper. The plan now is to get his gf to pretend she exchanged his kemper with a pod xt for Christmas (my pod xt actually). He always talk shit about pod, even after he thought my profile of it was "so tube sounding" before he knew what it was :D


    I guess you could call that "testing". The triggering will be real. Tears will be shed. He will be faced with his worst fear -- line 6 -- And I will gain an insight into the psychology of well, having kpa replaced by a pod. For science. And shit :D best of all? She'll tell him I told her pod is better so she did this for him (of course I don't believe that but we often argue about stuff like this, and I defend pod a lot)


    But yes, conclusions about IR stand. That said... I think it's often Good to wait till you hear some good test (most are not, they just aren't; someone for example recording with a smartphone, no DI, monitoring through a potato.. No man, that is cool too, but not a test to listen to). If IR loading is improved I'll just not have to use hardware solution for it or Daw.


    That said without editor it may even be more convenient to load IR in daw at least when working from home.

    Edited 2 times, last by Dimi84 ().

    Like 1

    Wow that kicked things off


    Thanks for the questions. There is and undeniable decrease in quality when CabMaker converts the files as has been outlined above.


    I don't buy into the 'well you should just use the cabs provide in the rigs' argument either because I've salvaged a few unusable rigs by changing the cabs because in my opinion the profiled cabs sounded absolutely dreadful (and from reputable profile suppliers as well).


    In terms of the legitimacy of the the profiling process and suppliers I'm talking about OwnHammer and Celestion so people who's reputation is built on making accurate representations of the cabs and speaks.
    And where it came from and how accurate the original is is almost irrelevant to me and not the point of this original post (although maybe it should be in a different forum). I have IR's I love the sound of in my DAW but when converted they just loose so much of what I like, and that is an issue for a unit who's main point of difference and the reason I bought one is it's accurate representation of rigs. So the issue is the fact that I want the IR on my profiler to sound like the IR in my DAW.


    And I absolutely use DI profiles where available (sometimes as stated above I've stripped a cab out of a merged/studio profile and replace it and it's better as a consequence but I understand the inherent issues in doing this).


    I'll looking at the Global Pure Cab setting when I get home tonight. I haven't changed it so if the default is set to on then I'll turn that off.


    I just think this is still a product that could be the undisputed king of digital amps (I can't think of a better phrase to sum up the modelling/profiling/simulation market) but there are some seemingly small things that should be sorted out if possible to make a huge difference to the functionality of the Kemper and entrench it's position as the top of the pile. A well designed editor being one and IR handling being another (there are other things but these surely can't be that hard to change).


    Thanks for chipping in with the ideas and questions ya'll.


    Don't get me wrong. I absolutely love my Kemper... just want to love it a bit more ;oD

    Quote from NEUK01642

    I just think this is still a product that could be the undisputed king of digital amps...

    I think it already is and has been since it came to market, Matt.


    Of course, no product is perfect, and the company seems determined to tweak it towards that end.

    Is pure cab automatically turned off when cab button is deactivated? If a merged profile (or Di with converted cab IR) is used, that would mean you are comparing for example a rig with Celestion profile (pure cab on) to Di profile with IR from impulse loader / daw (pure cab off). Also take care of different volume settings.


    In the past I have made test recordings and have unfortunatrly found differences in sound too.


    This topic pops up again and again.


    Why isn't there a clear statement from Kemper team to clear things up and explain it to us? Or have I missed that.


    An official statement would be really helpful and I think the user has the right to know, if Cab Maker is doing a 100% faultless job or maybe why it can not be accurate.

    I totally understand why Kemper team is reserved with statements and future announcements. From a sales point of view it may be better to advertise the cab maker feature than telling the need of an improvement.


    But if cab maker is not 100% accurate it leads the concept of "IR" use with Kemper ad absurdum - and users will discuss.


    Same with reverbs and editor. If they announce it early, possible buyers may think they miss out a "key feature" at the moment and hesitate and wait. If you know nothing about updates and think everything works, you BUY! But than you notice what you need more ....and hope and wait, hope and wait, hope and wait.


    (I too LOVE the Kemper and informed myself before buying. But I really thought Rig Manager is a kind of editor :thumbup: , I can convert IR without changing sounds and spring reverb... come on).

    Official statements would help with a few issues but they aren't always easy to come by.


    For me the best tone I've had from kemper is a direct profile of my amp plus sinmix IR. I prefer that set up to any other option: for example converting IR through cab maker and using the same direct profile with the result, or profiling the amp itself plus the IR (that can also be done).


    Both the kemper cab resulting from studio profile and the converted IR I like less than direct profile + the IR itself. That leads to a few choices: either use another modeler to match the direct profile and then load the IR Into it where the IR sound changes less (In this case with just as good results on the amp modelling side) or use hardware vst loader after kemper or loader in daw.


    Or really just the real amp plus IR which is what I use most the time. If kemper handled IRs better I'd certainly be more likely to go that route for more uses.

    Edited once, last by Dimi84 ().

    I don't think that as many good kemper tests exist as people tend to think, nope. Advertisements, yes. Tests with questionable methodology, yes.


    That doesn't mean commercial sellers don't make accurate profiles btw.


    I was just referring to what the norm is, and in this scenario, sellers. Which seller publishes tests? Few. They could sell more too if they did, I wouldn't be Surprised.


    -- There are sellers though who do a bad job when it comes to profiling. I can tell you that for sure. I don't think they even care to refine properly --


    My own test show kemper to be very close. I don't dispute that. They are not perfect tests but better than most. If kemper there sounds close, that is a testament to how close the unit does get. People can listen and make their conclusions. If I had some anti kemper bias it would be very easy to profile badly.


    Btw, I don't know what test of mine you are referring to for that "special situation". If that is the both stages distorting test, man, playing that tone in the room is Pretty bad, to say the least. If you think that is close, that is a testament to how important tonal differences can be even when hard to hear in a test imho.


    Wouldn't say that when single stage distorting, that the "feels" is as described above.


    IRs can and have been tested. Just not so much on YouTube. I agree that there's value in doing that as well. Some IR makers will do a better job than others if accuracy is the goal (which is not always the case).

    Edited once, last by Dimi84 ().