The point of cabs IR with the Kemper ?...

    Hi everyone,


    I've just been reading different posts about cabs IR (especially the ones made by Celestion) and I'm a bit confuse...
    I've understood what IR are, but with the way the Kemper works, I don't get the point (and maybe there isn't one ! maybe it's only for the simulators machines such as Axe FX, Helix...?) : by making a profile, the Kemper "captures" the sound of both the preamp and the cabinet right (and even also the signature of the mic) ? So, why bother using an other cab than the one you've just profiled ?... ?(?(

    Some would agree, but the cab and mic are very crucial to a great profile and sometimes that is the shortcoming. Also, sometimes you may want another speaker/mic/cabinet configuration. There are many different reasons and many are good. I've had good luck with different cabs and IR's and would not discount using good IR's. That is one of the reasons I prefer merged or DI profiles. However, do not let that be a deterant as you can also have good results with studio profiles. Try it for yourself. Personal experience trumps reading about someone else's opinion.

    "More Guitar in the Monitors" :thumbup:

    Like 1

    I guess IRs are a good option as if they are well made you wouldn't be able to tell the difference from the real thing. I even did a profile last week with IRs through VST just to capture the "cab" part on Kemper (instead of buying an IR and converting to Kemper file as I already had bought the IR in my torpedo wall of sound plugin). Results were very good in my opinion.

    Ok, there are two possible scenarios where I can see a point to using a cab IR with the Kemper.


    Using an external cab emulator with the Kemper - This will provide room sound as cab IR are used via a reverb style convolution most of the time so you get a bit of the room sound back.


    Importing IR's into the Kemper - If you have a very specific frequency response you're after from a cab IR e.g. doing Ozone matching, then this might be the way to go.


    Otherwise I don't see any point, the Kemper captures cabs better with it's own algorithm than via the IR convertor and I've yet to hear an imported cab IR that was any better than even the most amateur profiling session's output.


    The trouble with convolution based IR usage for me is that it's so called "static" convolution with the one notable exception of Nebula. What that means is that the output is super smooth and constant and sounds synthetic, you don't get harmonic effects and so on, convolution can only extend out a frequency over time, not impart harmonic content from e.g. a room or speaker cabs resonance, it also can't change behavior depending on volume, which means that materials that maybe start to change character at louder volume aren't represented. There are papers on more advanced convolution techniques, but they're super complex and difficult to achieve, hence why there are so few complex convolution plugins out there and instead some of the better developers try to tailor their cab convolution with a little bit of modeling magic on top.

    In my experience (reiterated: MY experience), I find that IRs on the Kemper don't sound as good as the profile. I came from an Atomic Amplifire, and I was "all in" with the IRs, but most sounded a little "fizzy" for me. I've done a lot of IR tone match EQ IRs also. Some were great, some not. I've tried celestion, and other 3rd party IRs, and they seem to come up short on the Kemper.

    Is there an A/B comparison somewhere showing same CAB / MIC in studio profile versus CAB / MIC from IR in a merged profile?
    I would love to see that as I am an IR believer so far, although I read several users saying Kemper captures it better in profiling process...HOWEVER I also read that Kemper actually does something similar to IR and this is why he can "import" IRs...and that during this import process Kemper "cuts" the IR (makes it shorter) so there is quality loss...

    Quote from claretimus

    Is there an A/B comparison somewhere showing same CAB / MIC in studio profile versus CAB / MIC from IR in a merged profile?

    Done it a while ago, mostly because of hearing IR will suck. is missing "amp-to-cab" interactions, ect, ect, and wanted to see what happens. But need to edit video before uploading and no time yet :)

    Bottom line is that the profile is all about how well the cab is mic'd. If somebody makes a profile at home without mic'ing a cab well, or to your taste, an IR can compensate for that. It's also helpful for DI profiles from some vendors.

    Quote from metalloony

    Hi everyone,


    I've just been reading different posts about cabs IR (especially the ones made by Celestion) and I'm a bit confuse...
    I've understood what IR are, but with the way the Kemper works, I don't get the point (and maybe there isn't one ! maybe it's only for the simulators machines such as Axe FX, Helix...?) : by making a profile, the Kemper "captures" the sound of both the preamp and the cabinet right (and even also the signature of the mic) ? So, why bother using an other cab than the one you've just profiled ?... ?(?(

    Honestly, I personally can't think of one good reason except that Kemper wanted to provide this compatibility for those coming from other modelers. Impulse responses as they're being used in the Market don't work or sound as good or as authentic the Kemper cabinets. Obviously this is based on my personal experience where I used to capture my own impulse responses as well as the best impulses the market had to offer, with real tube AMPS.


    It wasn't worth the hassle to keep using the IRS when I got the Kemper and compared both. You can get great nice results with Real tube amps and impulses (using Direct Box and attenuaters), but Kemper on its own simply sounded better to my ears and offered open ended variety.

    Quote from Dean_R

    Honestly, I personally can't think of one good reason except that Kemper wanted to provide this compatibility for those coming from other modelers. Impulse responses as they're being used in the Market don't work or sound as good or as authentic the Kemper cabinets. Obviously this is based on my personal experience where I used to capture my own impulse responses as well as the best impulses the market had to offer, with real tube AMPS.
    It wasn't worth the hassle to keep using the IRS when I got the Kemper and compared both. You can get great nice results with Real tube amps and impulses (using Direct Box and attenuaters), but Kemper on its own simply sounded better to my ears and offered open ended variety.

    Not all Kemper cabs are created the same. You're relying on the person making the profile and that you prefer a similar mic technique, or indeed mic to begin with. I'll also say that I've been less than pleased with converting cabs from existing merged rigs that I like and trying them on other DI or merged profiles. Almost every time I've tried using what I thought was a really good cab capture on another profile, it never worked. That being said, I've been able to take converted IR's for DI profiles and get much better results.


    Bottom line: search for profiles that are baked in with a great cab and you'll be much more satisfied. If you wind up with DI profiles, convert some of your favorite IR's to Kemper Cabs and try them out. The IR's promise to be consistent while something definitely changes when using another profiles cab. Since the KPA determines the division of the amp vs cab tone, it could be a matter of even a merged cab still having some of the amp tone baked in, hence it doesn't transfer well to others (in my experience).

    Okay ! Thank you all for your answers.
    I will probably try some cab's IR, just to get my own point of view, but it conforts me in what I already thought : if the profiling was made by pros (for exemple great studios), choosing the best mics and cabs and spending time on testing before profiling, there's no need for cabs IR.

    You may also be interested in this. I don't consider the post derailing too much.


    https://youtu.be/CQIOapiMsOI


    I shot that direct profile of the amp too (video is direct amp signal plus IR). For me that is great flexibility...


    1) Shoot direct profile of an amp i like And then be able to use a large variety of IR and test in mix. I prefer that to swapping kemper cabs for sure.


    2) Then if something works nice, can use the IR in kemper or, even better, loaded after kemper in external hardware ir loader.


    If a studio profile is good, it's good, but this adds flexibility that can be useful for some. I tend to shoot many direct profiles lately because of this.

    Quote from Dean_R

    The idea also is to simplify the process, adding thousands of IRs to the thousands of Profiles can very easily put anyone back in a rabbit hole of never ending possibilities,. The simplest fastest approach I found so far is to audition/rather than edit profiles and tinker with cabs.It's basically trying to get rid of all habits, you get to something that sounds great or amazing, and then you say, let me try to swap the Impulse response and see if I can further improve, so instead of playing. time is kind of wasted on exploring the clearly never ending possibilities. However, many Kemper users on this forum, found their sound by simply swapping cabs, so it is a very good valid option too.
    keep in mind, Kemper was designed to enable guitar players to utilize a simple fast approach to tone, with very few powerful parameters, there isn't the plethora of parameters as other modelers, but there's the plethora of profiles that can lead to similar waste of time and I can see how some, with IRs, cans still get caught in a never ending pursuit.

    I agree. I started by swapping things and now I am more looking for profiles that fulfill my needs out of the box without much tweaking in any parameters besides adding boost in front and delay / reverb in the end.




    Now for recording purposes and mixing for sure having a good set of IRs with the flexibility of testing them without changing original tone is an awesome thing!

    Quote from Dean_R

    The Bognar 2x12 sounded best to me and next was the lemon.
    Too many options and too little time, IRs with real tube amps though DI box line out from speaker output gives very good results but a bit of a hassle setting up an ISO and is limited to the number of amps . Kemper is a huge convenience in that regard with more variety.

    I use my own load box at home, so it's easy, but it cannot be used with amps with high wattage. I may work on it further But it will take time. Up to now with any low wattage amp I've tried with it the effect on tone has been extremely small. Profile of that vs profile of direct amp sound without the load box are nearly identical (I've made direct profiles of both). Sometimes I use these profiles, others the amp.


    Using the profiles plus IR in daw is just very convenient when it comes to having a broad range of tones but Still be based on what I want from an amp tone, which is a very personal thing anyway. If you compare this profil to most, for example, it will sound thin, small, brittle. But it's made for specific uses of mine including the particular guitar, tuning, strings... And yet at times I will want a slightly different flavor which is where IRs come in.


    I agree that "choice paralysis" can be a real problem. It's been more and more of an issue with society in general, let alone amps. Studio profiles can be great too. But even there it's easy to loose oneself With all possible choices. I like the ability to keep amp part constant while recording. It helps me focus. That's where the way of direct profile + IR comes in, something that would require a lot of work in studio otherwise for making as many different profiles.


    Of course many studio profiles are great too and don't need other cabs, ect ect. I tend not to think much about cabs when it comes to profiles others made. I use stuff that will have the whole signal chain right for the particular purpose at hand, from sinmix, big hairy profiles, now cililab.

    Edited 2 times, last by Dimi84 ().

    Quote from metalloony

    Hi everyone,


    I've just been reading different posts about cabs IR (especially the ones made by Celestion) and I'm a bit confuse...
    I've understood what IR are, but with the way the Kemper works, I don't get the point (and maybe there isn't one ! maybe it's only for the simulators machines such as Axe FX, Helix...?) : by making a profile, the Kemper "captures" the sound of both the preamp and the cabinet right (and even also the signature of the mic) ? So, why bother using an other cab than the one you've just profiled ?... ?(?(

    There isn't really a point unless you are after a very specific IR sound and can't profile your setup. Other than that, people are bored and tweak around.