Michael Wagner, super-mega rock producer on the Kemper

Quote from polifemo

As I´ve said before this "EQ/Frequency-thing" is easy to profile!
I´m talking about many other aspects of amp design that makes an amp into what it is, but I suppose that all this is difficult to understand unless one has built/modded amps one self...

Hopefully we´ll see multi amp profiles here that are compared with the recording of the same amp setup, and then we´ll know how close the Kemper gets.
Hopefully it will get really close

I understand perfectly. I think you're misinterpreting the role of biamping in this context versus layering vastly different tones. Have you ever biamped a rig? Its kinda like coffee. Drink it straight and its big and bold. Add a little cream and sugar and things soften up. Its still got that coffee bite but now a hint of sweetness and a smoother finish. Its doesn't taste the same as it does straight, but its still recognizable as coffee. The same thing happens when you biamp. If you plug into 2 amps with an active A/B, the combined sound (and feel) is dominated by one with the other filling in supplemental frequencies. Again, I'm not talking about layering a dirty and clean sound, I'm speaking of putting supplemental amps together to form one sound. Tills did some biamped stuff which comes stock with the Kemper. If you search the forum, Andy has a tri-amped profile he did. Its totally possible and has already been done.

The way I usually do it is combining amps with very different amounts of gain and feel - like an "AC/DC-tone" combined with a (rather) heavily distorted amp - and that´s why I´m a bit puzzled wether this will work for me or not...
I´ll try to find out for myself

Polifemo,

Thank you for your additional posts - they have made it clear you were wondering how well multiple amp profiling might work for you, as opposed to suggesting people weren't telling the truth about how they are using this fancy toaster

This kind of sound can also be heard in single amp profiles, when tweaked. One of the things I really like about the Kemper is how it can have a fundamentally pure and powerful guitar sound, with a halo of gain around that initial tone. I hear that in some of the gainier profiles, when I have the guitar volume turned down. ( the Marshall Golub Crunch does it nicely, if you get the gain and response parameters optimized to do it with the guitar you are using. )

So, welcome to all this - grab some amps, and give it a try:)

Quote from vablows

Nothing really scientific about it, you're just getting blended tones from different amps just like Wagner mixes when mastering.
You can't isolate those tracks in your head when they are in the mix, you can only hear everything blended and that is what is pleasing.
I don't see why there would be any problems for the Kemper to capture the blended tones.

Well, rather than expecting problems, I'm asking myself if it can do it and how. With my Engineering background this kind of investigation is a pleasure to me, and just technological speculation.

My technical doubt is: if one of the two amps is clean and with a strong and spikey attack, ad the other one has got a lot of compression and saturation, what will be the KPA reaction, and how will it manage the algorithm to recreate this behaviour, since it appears to have to be told whether the profile the user is about to take is a distorted or clean one?

When I use my Lonestar Special all crancked up together with my Peavey Bandit pristine clean, I can clearly hear a sound which is the sum of both (depending on the mix levels). But those are two different amps playing together: the KPA shall create only a single profile, and shall make some "decision" when it comes to compression levels, attack and the like. Since I have no knowledge about its algorithmic structure, and have currently no possibility to experiment with it, this is what intrigues me.
I'd love to hear some demo of this, if someone were willing to try.

Quote from viabcroce

I'd love to hear some demo of this, if someone were willing to try.

okstrat just posted these clips yesterday, of two amps profiled simultaneously.
"VHT, Fortin and bogner blended tones"

I think multi amp profiles would be prime candidates for using multiple guitars while refining, both lower output single coils and hot humbuckers in a mahogany body. That would provide additional information about how the two amps react together to a wider range of input signals and guitars.

I'd be interested in what Bill Ruppert thinks about this. He has golden ears and a knack for creating any kind of sound imaginable ...

Quote from paults

I think multi amp profiles would be prime candidates for using multiple guitars while refining, both lower output single coils and hot humbuckers in a mahogany body. That would provide additional information about how the two amps react together to a wider
range of input signals and guitars.

This doesn't seem to be necessary, Paul.
From the wiKPA, page 68:

"[CK] The guitar does not matter for the refining process. The Profiler mainly reads the dynamics of an amp, when played by the guitar. Every guitar delivers enough dynamics to satisfy this aspect. In the end, the type of guitar or pickup does not have an impact in the profiling result. If the result is good, the A/B test will pass with any guitar. If the result was not good, the flaws will be obvious with every guitar."

Quote from imall41

okstrat just posted these clips yesterday, of two amps profiled simultaneously.
"VHT, Fortin and bogner blended tones"

Thank you imall, I had already listened to the two clips.
It did not seem to me it was a matter of a pristine clean amp with a heavily distorted one tho... Okstar's notes did not seem to spread light on this ...

Quote from viabcroce

This doesn't seem to be necessary, Paul.
From the wiKPA, page 68:

"[CK] The guitar does not matter for the refining process. The Profiler mainly reads the dynamics of an amp, when played by the guitar. Every guitar delivers enough dynamics to satisfy this aspect. In the end, the type of guitar or pickup does not have an impact in the profiling result. If the result is good, the A/B test will pass with any guitar. If the result was not good, the flaws will be obvious with every guitar."

Thanks for the clarificaton:) My thought was the relative dynamics of the two amps would react differently to brighter/quieter guitars than to darker/louder guitars, and it might give the Kemper more data for dynamics analysis to use more than one type of guitar.

Quote from Will_Chen

No, you're looking at it like averaging and that's not how it works. All the signals are summed and the Kemper sees one signal. If you've ever played a multi-amp setup, almost always one amp will be the dominate tone and the others fill in sonic gaps or provide clarity. The Kemper clearly can not provide an accurate profile where the end result is an obviously layered sound, like a clean and dirty tone mixed 50/50. Listen to some of Wagener's work. His multiamp technique is to use multiple amps combined to provide one bigger than life sound, not something which clearly sounds layered. A few folks have done multi-amp profiles successfully already. Its absolutely possible.

Yeah, I agree. Until the Kemper can load several amps at once it will be hard to achieve this without doing it offline, amp by amp and mixing in the DAW. I am afraid the current Kemper might not be powerful enough but maybe a "Kemper Pro" is on the horizon.

Quote from paults

Thanks for the clarificaton:) My thought was the relative dynamics of the two amps would react differently to brighter/quieter guitars than to darker/louder guitars, and it might give the Kemper more data for dynamics analysis to use more than one type of guitar.

Mhhh... this would make sense, provided the KPA were able to profile a very clean and twangy amp along with a heavily distorted one. Eng. Kemper's statement itself could be a hint that this behaviour is not in the algorithm ...
I'd love to see this is not true, of course!

Quote from Animus

Yeah, I agree. Until the Kemper can load several amps at once it will be hard to achieve this without doing it offline, amp by amp and mixing in the DAW. I am afraid the current Kemper might not be powerful enough but maybe a "Kemper Pro" is on the horizon.

You´re probably right.
I would guess that running separate profiles in parallel within the Kemper would be the only way to achieve this.

Maybe a "Kemper Pro" will be able to do this

Quote from polifemo

Posts from Michael Wagener:

...I'd like yo add, based on my experience, the secret behind a great guitar tone (besides the player) is the combination of amps or sounds, different speakers, microphone mic pre-amps and so on. Rarely have I ever used just one amp to record a guitar track, it's always been a combination. Maybe a super distorted amp together with a cleaner amp, so you can still hear all the separate string in that hi gain distortion soup. Or a more bassy sound together with a brighter sound, or the combination of 4, 5, 6, 7 or more amps to get where I want to get...

...I use it (the Kemper) to profile a sound made out of a combination of amps, cabinets, different speakers, different microphones, different mic-pres. All this is being mixed together to produce one sound that works on a particular track. I go back to that sound on the same session with the same player for another track that needs the same sound. On the last Lordi album we ended up profiling 7 different sounds with different setups of the above combinations and then we used those for the rest of the album for other songs, about 45 guitar tracks total, sometimes with different guitars/pickups. So essentially I am creating my own guitar amp.

I get the amp combination to sound right through the control room monitors (to my ears) then make a profile. I am not so much interested to have a profile of, let's say THAT Marshall Plexi, I am more interested in getting the sounds I use on an album profiled and ready to use them again. Based on my earlier statement those profiles will sound different with every player anyway. It just gives me a whole new arsenal of guitar tones.

I have messed around with using different profiled cabs with different amp profiles, and while that is an interesting and inspiring feature, I normally stick with the cab that was profiled with a certain amp setup....

Display More

That was a good read.
Michael Wagener use the Kemper profiling amp in some very interesting ways.

I just noticed that kemper posted this interview news link on facebook to Premierguitar. Studio legends Michael Wagener.
http://www.premierguitar.com/a…ds-michael-wagener?page=1
The kemper info is on page two. I'd love to visit that studio packed with so much gear goodness.

Do you record the Kemper direct or do you run it to a cabinet and mic it?
"I’m also using the Kemper Profiling Amp a lot. It has a lot of my amps stored in it and it sounds awesome.
My profiles already include the amp, cab, mics, preamps, etc., so I normally use it direct. When I profile a sound, I have maybe one, two, or three amps going to a few cabs with different speakers and a bunch of microphones, which in turn are going through different mic preamps. All the mics are mixed together to one mono track, and then I profile that sound."

Quote from michaelmellner

check this post out, guys. after Lukather, another stellar rock guy talking about the kpa............

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/8569668-post58.html

Thanks for the info. Mr Wagener is a fantastic studio guru.

I wonder if he realizes how much he could make if he offered those profiles for sale. Myself, I would drop several hundred dollars if he put out some sort of mega-pack!

"They don't do your right hand justice, so they make you play different."

I am not a big name producer but it was exactly this for me, with all (all of them) previous digital simulators/modellers. I never liked them. Kemper... almost 2 months of jaw on the floor and counting..

Here is another video with Michael Wagener talking about how he use the kemper profiling amp.
Some good interesting info here.

[YOUTUBE]