Clean Sense and Noise Gate settings make a HUGE difference

    I know this horse has been beaten to death a thousand times over, but I'd still like to revisit the clean sense setting because I've just found out I've had it set wrong for my main guitar and that made a lot of difference. Until tonight it was set to 5.0 (my main guitar is an Ibanez RG1570 with a DiMarzio Fred on the bridge and a 36th Anniversary PAF on the neck). Didn't sound bad but could get a little brittle at times and the dynamics were good, or so I thought.


    Then tonight I've decided to try lowering clean sense to 3.5 and WHOA! All of a sudden dynamics improved and notes seemed to get more articulate. Please note that this wasn't with clean tones, the manual says the clean sense control doesn't affect distorted tones but I beg to differ. Or maybe I'm hearing things (it has happened before), hence this thread - please take a moment to try this out and tell me if I'm crazy.


    So my old approach for setting clean sense was strumming hard and turning the knob until the input LED barely lit RED. The new approach is setting clean sense so that the input LED barely lights YELLOW. It seems to make a world of difference to me.


    Now on to the second and complimentary setting: the noise gate. Some may prefer the expander pedals (2:1 and 4:1), I like the noise gate accessible from the "Noise Gate" knob because it seems to be based on a low pass expander, which I prefer because it helps control the "bite" on note attacks. Now the problem is, if you set it too high (like almost all of the factory rigs and rigs in the rig packs) it will muffle your tone too much and make it sound dull. So what you want is to set it at the very threshold where when muting the strings no hum can be heard (maybe just a little). The important thing to notice here is that this threshold depends on how much gain is dialed in the patch (also the type of pickup of course), which means the input section must be unlocked so gate settings can be stored with each rig.


    Peace,
    Deny

    I have always tried for no red on the input LED at all. I don't even like seeing it yellow. I was under the assumption that red=clipping=bad so have avoided it.

    Hey Deny! I did exactly the same yesterday with the clean sense (Music Man Luke with active PU's). The only difference is: It was set to 6.0 and it barely lit yellow. Now I lowered it to 3.0 so that it stays green. I'm yet not sure about the influence of that setting on my tone because I didn't have time enough to check. But my first impression was that it sounds better now.


    On my setup the input is never locked because this allows to dial in the right amount of noise gate threshold on each rig. What I do with noisy rigs is to place the 2:1 or the 4:1 (depends on the noise of the rig) in Stomp A with threshold set to zero. This pretty much kills a lot of noise, especially the 4:1. The rest of the noise I'm killing with the internal noise gate (only little settings of about 1.0 to 2.5 are necessary because of the 4:1 in Stomp A).

    I could have farted and it would have sounded good! (Brian Johnson)

    Thanks for the tip - I'll give it a go.
    For curiosity's sake - what kind of player are you? Shredding, rhythm, old-school, jazz?..


    I'm wondering if cranking the input gain would be the equivalent of using high output pickups or using a really clean boost - i do tend to like low output pups better, maybe you do too :)

    "But dignity is difficult to maintain
    stamina requires constant upkeep
    repetition is boring
    and you pay for grace."

    Quote from Quitty

    Thanks for the tip - I'll give it a go.
    For curiosity's sake - what kind of player are you? Shredding, rhythm, old-school, jazz?..


    I'm wondering if cranking the input gain would be the equivalent of using high output pickups or using a really clean boost - i do tend to like low output pups better, maybe you do too :)

    Interesting question, and I think I understand why you ask - the older I get, the less gain I dial in my tones, among other things. I've been playing for a little over 30 years and like a variety of styles, rock, jazz, fusion, metal and so on. Currently my favorite players are Shawn Lane, Eric Johnson and more recently Guthrie Govan, so those are the tones I aim for - it doesn't mean I can play as well as them, not even close actually, but good tone is essential to keep me inspired and I like to use a lot of dynamics in my playing, also varying picking angle and depth. Let me know if this doesn't answer your question.


    One other thing, to my ears adjusting clean sense sounds different from adjusting the gain in the amp. Clean sense sounds like the variac control in Guitar Rig 4, the higher you dial it the brighter and more "aggressive" the attack, while lowering it yields a "spongier" and mellower tone that I much prefer. As far as my perception goes, the KPA is only capable of adjusting *input* gain in the amp block, meaning the lower the gain, the thinner the tone while higher gain settings will eventually make your rig sound bassy and even muddy, maybe someone from the Kemper team can chime in and confirm this.

    Edited once, last by Deny ().

    Good point ...I past through the same issues from red to yellow ,but now even further , all of my guitars have clean sense ONLY 2.5 !!
    and they sound better than ever before...

    1988 Branko Radulovic Hand Made Strat in Macedonia (SFRJ)

    2006 Steve Vai vwh moded with SS frets and Sustainac 2006 (Japan)

    2008 Fender YJM , moded (USA)

    2010 Tom Andersons Drop Top 2010 (made in California)

    2017 Charvel GG sig Caramelised Ash (USA)

    2022 Gibson ES 335 2011 Custom Shop Cherry of course ( Memphis)

    Clean sense is supposed to only alter the loudness on clean profiles and its purpose is so we can match the distorted profiles level. It should not have any effect on distorted profiles. CK has assured that several times on the forum. Do you really notice a difference on distorted profiles? I have not tried this myself.


    Quote from ckemper

    I have to say what has been posted there is a myth.
    Both controls domnot colour the sound.
    Clean Sense has no impact on distorted sounds.
    Distortion Sense is the same as readjusting the Gain knob.
    Please tell that to everybody :)

    Quote from MadH

    Clean sense is supposed to only alter the loudness on clean profiles and its purpose is so we can match the distorted profiles level. It should not have any effect on distorted profiles. CK has assured that several times on the forum. Do you really notice a difference on distorted profiles? I have not tried this myself.


    I'll reamp something later because I tried this yesterday and could hear a difference too. If I find differences after reamping, I'll post the clips here. I'll do it in the scientific way :D

    Quote from pacocito

    I did that with one of Andy's profiles. It came with gain at 12 and there was a difference, but in volume too.


    Then I tried one of the "full" profiles and there was no difference.


    EDIT: hmmmmmm... Andy's WEM Cranked 2 profile with some tweaking. Listen to the open chords while i'm moving the clean sense.
    https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3645952/WEM%20Cranked%202.mp3

    Let me guess, you started with a low clean sense setting, strum, higher setting, strum, back to lower setting, strum, back to higher setting, strum. That's exactly what I hear and BTW even the waveforms are distinctively different.

    Edited once, last by Deny ().

    Quote from MadH

    Definitely there is something going on there that in theory could not happen.

    Lots of things which is not in accordance with theory and CK intention is happen with Kemper
    some of them are good some not , for me, where bad things is good for someone else, and vice versa, no hassle.
    You can tell me million times that clean sense doesn't have impact on distorted tone, but I will tell you million and one time more - yes -clean sense does have impact on overall tone /sound, not only on clean .
    Howg !
    The same thing with changes in sound from 1.5 to 1.6 . , even 1.7 is different sound than both 1.5 and 1.6 .
    Proof ?
    The proof is what I hear and what I feel and how I fell it . I am the user, this is my Kemper and I feel there is a difference, you can tell me whatever you want , I will still feel the difference.


    I think this is about situation , already seen so many times in history, when invention becomes bigger than inventor, with all due respect !

    :D


    After all, this is just a proof how good inventor is and how good is his invention !

    1988 Branko Radulovic Hand Made Strat in Macedonia (SFRJ)

    2006 Steve Vai vwh moded with SS frets and Sustainac 2006 (Japan)

    2008 Fender YJM , moded (USA)

    2010 Tom Andersons Drop Top 2010 (made in California)

    2017 Charvel GG sig Caramelised Ash (USA)

    2022 Gibson ES 335 2011 Custom Shop Cherry of course ( Memphis)

    Edited 5 times, last by Rescator ().

    I,m totally agree with You Rescator.
    The truth is that the clean sens is affecting the distorted rigs too.
    I like and use this function in a lot of older amps profiles.
    You can play with the clean input sensitivity a lot in a Marshall plexi tone, because it can give to the sound an interesting, much more concrete attack and a lot of caracter depending by the guitar You,re using.
    If You are increasing the clean sensivity in a half-driving amp profile the result is a little bit similar to what happens when You are increasing the Direct Mix increasing function in the AMP parameters....., but is much pleasant sounding.
    I,m like it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :thumbup:
    It,s one of my little Kemper secrets. ;)

    Just wanted to get back with some of the results of my latest tests messing with the clean sense control, it seems its behavior changes from amp to amp which means it really has an influence on how hard the guitar signal hits the amp input. This leaves me with the following question: what is the value setting that matches the actual physical amp input level? ?(


    And here's why I ask: you don't have a clean sense control in your amp, right? When you plug a Les Paul and then a Strat into your amp, input levels are different, and that is to be expected and in some cases desired. As far as I can tell, when we tweak the input sense in the KPA for different guitars it's as if we were adjusting the amp input level, which is a control that often does not exist in real amps. My point is that some times that might be desired, but some times we want the amp to behave exactly like the real amp, that is, producing softer saturation with low output guitars.


    Now matching the original amp might be with an absolute value (clean sense = 5.0 for instance) or a relative one (clean sense = same setting the amp was profiled at), and I'd really like to know which.

    Quote from pacocito

    I did that with one of Andy's profiles. It came with gain at 12 and there was a difference, but in volume too.


    Then I tried one of the "full" profiles and there was no difference.


    EDIT: hmmmmmm... Andy's WEM Cranked 2 profile with some tweaking. Listen to the open chords while i'm moving the clean sense.
    https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3645952/WEM%20Cranked%202.mp3


    It is very obvious that the clean sense modifies the gain of that profile. This is something that should not happen.
    I could not find this behaviour on any other profile.
    What is the name of this profile? If it's a modified profile, please send it to our support for further investigation.

    Quote from ckemper

    It is very obvious that the clean sense modifies the gain of that profile. This is something that should not happen.
    I could not find this behaviour on any other profile.
    What is the name of this profile? If it's a modified profile, please send it to our support for further investigation.


    I'll send it to support later.


    Is one of The Amp Factory profiles called AF4-68 WEM Cranked2, but this is happening with other TAF profiles, but not all of them. I'll try to identify some of them.


    Thank you.