Posts by mbrown3

Quote from lasvideo

Whats up with your posts???

Thanks for fixing that up. It was hard to read the other way. : )

OP I think you have a lot of food for thought that will go out the window when you get to play thru one of these amazing devices. ENJOY!

Yeah, I get that. I'm not gathering opinions so much to help me decide which one to buy, as much as to decide which one to keep. That is, I'm more interested in what will work better for me in the long run than which will sound great out of the box...I suspect both will be awesome. But (as with a lot of gear), I want to get at the things that may start bothering me over time.

Quote from TheLightspeeder

@mbrown3 actually your observation is not correct. My statement has been backed up by many posters here as well as in the manual. Please re-read the exact workings of the profile making. Again, I am just giving you my observation and experience from working with the KPA a lot in the studio as well as clinics I conduct for Kempet here in the US at Guitar Center. I know you are just compiling information but tbh at this point the dog is chasing its tail to stay with your metaphor;)

Fair enough. As I said, I don't have first-hand experience. But the majority of posts in this thread, as well as Kemper's own product info (read the pages on their site) reflect the other understanding of how the snapshots work rather than the one you've described. Personally, I don't care either way. I care if it works and if it sounds good. I'm simply saying that if your description is accurate, then they really need to re-think the way they describe it in the info (and, apparently, the way most of their users have come to understand it).

Quote from db9091

The Kemper can profile an amp and sound just like it, but the parameters do not closely tweak like the amp. It can't know this and is close within a small range but can quickly leave that range and become it's own sound...

This may be the most helpful, most unbiased post on either forum. THANK YOU.

Quote from TheLightspeeder

Lasvideo, I am sorry but you are wrong. You are misunderstanding the meaning of a snapshot in this context. Yes, the KPA takes a snapshot and then translates all values to its controls and sets it up just like the amp you had profiled. From there you can change your settings on the KPA just like you'd do in your original amp, behaving exactly the same way... The difference to the Axe-FX is that these values are established by your own doing and not by the company.

Here's the issue, though: almost everyone else (including the product's own literature) reflect more of his description than yours.

Note that I don't exactly have a dog in this fight...I haven't had the opportunity to experience it (yet). But the vast majority of folks that have used the Kemper...including the Kemper folks...have explained it closer to the way he did than the way you did. I'm not saying you're wrong...just that my impression from all of those sources was the same as his (rather than yours). If your description is more accurate in reality, then they need to do a better job of explaining the way the amp works.

Quote from viabcroce

Fair enough
I'll use an hyperbole to clarify my feeling: if a person assaults and batteries you today, will they become a better person the following week just because they do not do it again?
Just to clarify, I'm not trying to influence what you think about the man. Mine was an attempt to explain why we say that people here look better to us
Also, if you found on this board someone hinting at the fact that you work for fARctal and are trying to stir the pot etc, I'd be the first to tackle them. When this happens on the Fractal forum, very rarely someone raises to defend your freedom of speak. Certainly no-one held my part at the time

I don't think anyone becomes a better person by their actions, or they're a bad person in the first place. Everyone has a bad day, some people have bad years. But I believe people can change, and I don't want to profile (see what I did there?) him based on his past actions if he's trying/tried to change. I'll also say that Cliff himself actually "came to my defense" in a sense. Well, not exactly, but he jumped in to say, "Let's give a newbie a good impression of the community"...something to that effect. And I appreciate that. (Note that I'm not trying to diminish your experience; just that I tend to try to go by own and give people the benefit of the doubt whenever possible).

Quote from viabcroce

This is not correct: the profile doesn't sound like the original amp would if the same heavy tweaking is applied.This is very different from "not sounding right": the Profiler always sounds right. If anything, you've got a lot of more control power than with a real amp. The gain knob on the Profiler offers 80 dB. You can even change the pick attack or the way tubes react to the signal... of course you can create bad sounds on the Profiler!

Well, to me "right" does equal "like the original amp." I don't mean right in the sense of "good" or even "better", I mean it in the sense of "accurate" (i.e., to the original source). As I said, others have noted that it doesn't sound bad when they tweak things...just that it doesn't sound like the original.

Quote from lightbox

When you ever get a chance to try a Profiler, I really wish you'll experience this FEEL, it's unbelievable and no words in forums or reviews will manage to convince you unless you've felt it in your own fingers and ears.

Should be here Thurs or Fri. I'll post back impressions after that (and I'll check out those profiles!).

Quote from TheLightspeeder

As I said before and lots of other guys here...2 completely different products. perhaps it would be easier for you to simply try them out and return the one you don't feel meets your needs. That's the bottom line. Good luck!

Yep, that's the plan. The Kemper will arrive next week and I'll try it out. The Axe...will depend on whenever they run a free shipping promo, and I'll try that too. Still, I like hearing info from users. This (here and at the FA forum) has actually been very helpful.

Quote from lightbox

The "snapshot" issue.
I remember Ingolf stating this before in (at least one) other thread ... and I completely agree.
A "snapshot" is a term we were used to use a few years back to describe the amazing accuracy of a profile compared directly to the original mic'ed amp & cab. Basically it IS a snapshot of this specific setting, yes. But the term is misleading somehow because to a newbie (or interested fellow) it implies that you can't change it.

But that's simply not true. You can modify the profile easily. You will be pleasantly surprised what GREAT results you get from a "snapshot" by just increasing or decreasing the Gain (not even mention all the other parameters). There's a LOT of flexibility in this magic box which doesn't deserve the term "snapshot". I think we all had to learn this and I'm shure nowadays we demo the Profiler using different words ... or even better no words but just playing and listening with hands-on experience.

Bottom line:
Don't give to much about the term "snapshot". technically it's correct when you're taking a profile. But that's not the end of the story then.
.

Display More

Thanks, this is great. It wasn't so much the term "snapshot" that I was hung up on...but it was the concept. Thanks for clarifying.

Quote from TheLightspeeder

Btw, nothing is 100% and yes it's a bunch of engineers sitting in a room, testing circuitry, EQs and cabs and capturing the data into a software format at Fractal. The KPA has an algorithm that recreates the sound based on a series of sonic test. The profiles itself are only 4bytes big...it's just a bunch of values that have been established based on these sonic tests and responses. One reason why the KPA doesn't need 2 processors. Streamlined mathematics and superior computation:) again, you are comparing apples and oranges

Testing circuits and EQ and cabs is a lot different than completely guessing what an amp sounds like. So saying, "it's some engineer's idea of what an amp sounds like" is misleading. It's not based on their arbitrary opinion. It's based on their testing. Also, from what I understand, the engineers at FA are also musicians, not just scientists.

Re: comparing apples and oranges, I agree with that. But I'm trying to figure out if an apple or an orange would be more what I want.

Quote from drew_fx

I understand what you're saying. I can't speak to it 100% because I've not had that experience. When I make tweaks, they feel musical and useful. So I don't pay much attention to whether it sounds like the real amp would if I made the same tweak on the amp..

Gotcha, and this is great to hear.

Quote from Michael_dk

Is it that important to you to have the amp controls influence the tone in the exact same way?

Not necessarily. The truth is, I have no basis for knowing, because all of the amps I've ever had have worked like themselves. Boy that's a weird sentence. Hopefully you get what I mean.

Quote from Michael_dk

Also, I don't understand why it would be less of an issue if the axe-fx works the same way, as you last sentence seems to imply. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something

The axe-fx doesn't work the same way, that's the thing. I'm having a hard time figuring out how to grasp this better. Many Kemper folks are saying, "The Kemper works very differently than the Axe..it profiles, not just models. The Axe has more generic amp models, whereas the Kemper is an exact snapshot." Then the same people say, "The same poblems with profiling exist on the Axe as well as on the Kemper." It seems to me that it can't be both ways, and that's what I'm responding to.

Quote from paults

The other main difference (as has also been mentioned) is profiling your own amp, if you want to, and having thousands of other amps to choose from. Of course, listening to all those profiles could easily take more time than deep editing the Axe.

Yeah, this is what appeals to me the most about the Kemper. I really like the tones of my amps (and I've spent years getting to the tones I have), so the ability to capture them directly sounds awesome.

Quote from drew_fx

Axe - the company does the programming for you, based on schematics of the amps. These then become presets for the amp block of sorts.
Kemper - you do the programming, based on the sound that you feed it and the refining process.

This is helpful, thanks. Still, I'm going off of real users' comments when they say the profiles don't exactly sound right once you start changing them from the profile. I haven't had experience with the unit yet...that's what other folks have said that have used the units (and not in a "bashing" way...many of them favor the Kemper and use it regularly). So regardless of how it does its work or the function of it, that's the one consistent piece of feeback I've gotten on the Kemper. It's not a problem for me, mind you, just something that I'm taking into account.

Quote from Booyah

Haven't read all the replies so I apologize if someone mentioned this already but since cost is a factor:
Kemper firmware updates are free, if you want an Axe FX update down the road you have to buy a new machine.

This is not my understanding. They've all said numerous times that firmware updates are all free with the Axe-FX too. Obviously hardware upgrades require a new unit, but I would imagine that to be true with Kemper as well.

Quote from paults

If you change guitars, the Kemper will sound like the original amp would with that guitar. The profiling process primarily uses the test tones to create the profile, not the guitar that is used for refining. Refining the Profile is optional - not a requirement. It is only needed if the profile does not sound exactly like the mic'ed amplifier.

Ah...thanks. That's good to know. Still, other users (even ones that love the KPA) have said that once you start tweaking (outside of minor adjustments) it stops sounding completely accurate, so that's where most of my concern stems from.

Quote from Michael_dk

Maybe some clarification is in order - please feel free to jump in if I provide the opposite here

On the kemper, you can "tweak" the profiles using the normal EQ knobs and the gain (which do not necessarily represent how the real amp would react to the tweaks). Then there are some deeper tweaks below the surface that can be done. But you can't build a profile from scratch and you can't make an existing profile into something that it is not, so to speak.

I THINK that with the axe-fx you can tweak everything, so maybe you can continue refining and refining and refining until you get someting that reacts to EQ changes, gain changes etc etc in the way that the real amp would - or something close to it. BUT that is part of the deal - you have to tweak tweak tweak to get there - I would never be able to do it, let alone have the patience...

YES. This is my understanding too. In fact, it's what people have been repeatedly saying are the main differences between the two units. If that's not the case, then if someone can clarify, I'd appreciate it.

Quote from TheLightspeeder

I see what you are saying viabcroce. if you think about it tho, it makes no sense. The Axe sounds are an engineers idea of amp sounds. There's no absolute to that since it's subjective and even when measured the 100% match is impossible. The KPA relies on the users ability to capture the sound that is possible with an amp to his/her liking. That is subjective too but that at least can be changed. Anyways, the point of selling amps or re profiling every time s component changes is total overkill:)

I'm not sure I understand this notion of "some engineer's idea of an amp sounds." You think it's a bunch of engineers in a room guessing that a Dual Rectifier sounds like x, y, and z, while a Princeton sounds like a, b, and c? From my understanding, the models are based on the real amps. Not with 100% accuracy for each user, the way the Kemper is, but still pretty darn close.

Quote from viabcroce

I guess the point the OP was making (Profiler Vs. Axe) is that, since the Axe can reproduce every setting of the modelled amp, it would always be possible to make it sound like the real amp, while he's afraid this won't be possible with the Profiler.

Yes.

Quote from TheLightspeeder

Ok, I think you need to research the purpose and sense of the KPA. The way you describe your concerns in regards to either selling your guitars or amps and having to rematch the sound to a new component will be the same with the Axe or with any other amp or guitar you...there's always a change...and that's why you can tweak the profile to match it but you don't re-profile the amp because of a changed component. That would be like tearing down the house every time you get a new piec of furniture. Try to understand that the profiles you get are based on your skills and taste. These might change and yes, you might not have the amp again to re-do it but unless you keep all your amps, there's nothing that can be done about it. Neither Axe, Pod, or Elevenrack will prevent that.

Except that I'm fairly sure that I am clear on the differences. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but Axe creates a more generic "overall" amp model that sounds pretty close to the original amp, if not 100%. That model includes all of the original tone shaping tools (EQ, gain, etc). The Kemper takes a snapshot of the actual sound coming from the amp, including settings, guitar, pickups being used, etc, then perfectly replicates it. Then (note that I'm going by what I've read, from both those for Kemper, AND those for Axe), because the Kemper takes a "snapshot" in time, once you start tweaking it from the profile, it stops sounding accurate. Not bad, just not entirely like what the amp sounds like when you make the same adjustments. For example, start changing the EQ curve and it starts not sounding accurate anymore. Use a different guitar with different pickups and it doesn't sound like that guitar, pickups, etc, would sound through that amp. That's less of an issue with the Axe because it's more of a generic model in the first place.

If this understanding isn't accurate, please correct me. But there are several pages here and a bunch over on the Axe forum that say the same thing, again from proponents AND detractors of the Kemper. And, FWIW, that's not a bad thing. But it leads me to believe that it would be better (or, rather, ideal) to re-profile rather than make adjustments over time.

Quote from DanielRigler

Not for me, thanks

I will say this: so far Cliff has been pretty open and fair. I believe you re: what you said, but maybe he's mellowed out? Maybe it's just because I'm genuinely looking for answers, not trying to start a flame war or whatever. But so far he's been pretty helpful. OTOH, there have been a couple of other idiots there...one of whom accused me of being a marketing shill for Kemper, trying to stir the pot or some such nonsense...and a whole bunch of people that have jumped all over me for complaining about the shipping costs of their items.

Still, in the same way I won't hold Cliff's past actions against him if he's put that behind him (or until I experience it), I won't hold the whole community there responsible for the actions of a couple of morons.