Making a conjecture... maybe the currently discussed issue exists because of Kemper's fixed-point processing -- at a certain point, the drive processing portion's dynamic range runs out and the volume increase does strange things because it meets an overflow limit. Seems a complicated issue to solve/optimize if this is the case. End of conjecture.
Posts by yeky83
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The Kone has an extended freq range and is not suitable without the Kemper. If you used the Traynor Preamp through it, it'll sound horrible and shrill. If you really wanted to try anyway for some reason, you could try an EQ pedal in its effects loop with a strong low-pass filter at around 5 kHz, but why would you.
And btw the Kone is not designed to be used with a tube power amp. It'll color the sound with a V-shaped EQ due to the impedance interaction between the Kone and the tube power amp.
This stuff is all in the manual which is well written and informative, check it out.
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This!
And it doen't matter if it's real tubes or a digital profile.
No, not this. It's been a long thread so it seems you missed it, but multiple users have now reported this issue on multiple units. Kemper's amp behaves as expected when pushed with an external pedal, but when pushed with an internal drive pedal's volume, it does not behave as expected and its perceived volume decreases.
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Nobody is dissing anyone.
I guess we all like pedals.I like me a good pedal.It is just that I and some others don´t like the hype around them.
The post I quoted literally said "yes I dis."
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Analog stomps have been mythologized way beyond their actual necessity in the musical voices of most of the iconic instrumentalists who inspire me. And you'll notice, with the internet icons whose records don't really matter so much, like Carlton, Ford, Landau, Landreth, etc, for most of their greatest tones, and yes I dis but I also love their playing, those pedals aren't even engaged.
Landau and Landreth both use always-on pedals most of the time, and Ford's used a pedal for his overdrive tone since the 2000's... if you're going to dis people at least get it right.
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Regarding the distortion graph, I ask you: How relevant would THD be? Do you think it would be very relevant to just look at the total harmonic distortion? Or is it more helpful to look at the complete distortion component?
So what is the distortion graph? That's all I'm really asking. The thing you call a distortion graph doesn't look like a distortion graph, so I'm just curious.
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Why don't you enjoy it?
This discussion is the best proof that guitar players don't agree and will never ever agree on most simple things.
So..here we have folks who claim that the new drives sound nothing like the "originals" while some other folks completely ignore this and rave about how the graphs which should help this claim "show how close the KD comes to the klon"..?
FWIW it's not my position that the new drives sound nothing like the originals, I've never said that. The claim in the Addendum is the new drives sound "sonically indistinguishable," and I take issue with that since things like hard/soft and symm/asymm clipping make sometimes subtle but still real sonic differences IMO.
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The art of Photoshop's editing capabilities and layer modes (in this case "Lighter Color")
That's why I initially didn't post these distortion graphs, I was just too lazy to fire up Photoshop to color/merge/overlay the separate graphs.Regarding the data set files ... if you don't trust me, say it openly. Otherwise, why don't you do your own tests (and findings) if you know the tools?
So is the distortion graph the THD plots? Something else? Looks strange to me.
I think I've already made it clear that I don't trust your graphs. I'm not interested in the topic enough to go and make measurements, so I'm asking for your measurements. But if you're not interested in a discussion, OK.
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Frequency Response Graph:
Distortion Graph:
These graphs seem weird to me, could you describe them further?
What's the signal chain for your freq response graph? It looks to me smoothed beyond recognition, but maybe it's something I'm not expecting.
And what you call the distortion graph actually looks to me like the frequency response graph...? It has the basic response shape of a close mic'ed guitar cab, which is what one would expect with a drive pushing an amp profile. And add to that, REW doesn't allow for multiple distortion curves on one plot, so what are you showing here?
Care to share your REW measurement data set file (.mdat)?
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I tried to replicate the Kemper Drive Klon 4 preset using my Ceriatone Centura pedal and in the beginning I really struggled. Here's what I did and found:
- I used a custom made profile of my Tube Thomsen Defcon-7 (a VERY rare amp and I have serial #1) ... Gain on the Profiler is 5.5, profiled through a 4x12 with Greenbacks using Neumann TLM 49 and Beyerdynamic M160.
- Kemper Drive is in slot A and the Ceriatone Centura is in slot B using Loop Mono ... no other slots used
- When I switched back and forth with the Klon 4 preset and the suggested settings for a Klon pedal, they sounded VERY different, I mean VERY VERY different. Quite disapponting moment, to be honest.
- After some more testing and analyzing, I found out that it just doesn't work at all with the Kemper Drive's Volume set to default <0.0>. The Kemper Drive didn't push the amp even remotely the same like my Ceriatone Centura (with Output set to 3 o'clock).
- When I turned down the Centura's output (roughly 8 o'clock) to level match with the Kemper Drive, the sound was totally different.
- And then I basically did the opposite, turned the Centura back up to 3 o'clock Output and the Kemper Drive's Volume to +5dB maximum
- HOLY CRAP ... they are completely undistinguishable, couldn't almost believe it and even ran REW with a sine sweep to check frequency response and distortion characteristics. Frequency response is dead on same, for distortion characteristics, Fundamentals and THD are a perfect match! WOW!
The only thing I wonder is the following:
The distortion in the odd harmonics (3,5,7,9) is pretty much a perfect match between Kemper Drive and Ceriatone Centura.
But the even harmonics (2,4,6,8) look very different (see attached pictures). Especially in the low frequencies and the bump at around 1kHz. Hmmmm.
As dickjonesify said, when you push the amp, you're mainly hearing its characteristic rather than the pedal's.
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Do you have a video where they demonstrate it in a more analytical way?
I only find quite superficial examples, as so often.
During our research we found that different diode configurations might have influence on the surrounding circuitry, moving the mid bump up or down. This is not a proven fact. However, the KD‘s mid bump can be varied by the Definition control anyway, so we did not care too much about the dependencies. The differences in the harmonic content is less of a feature and vastly overrated. The stories about this are pure marketing and/or unknowingness even by the makers, in my perception.
I have always tried to bring sonic effects down to the essencial and to be honest to our users.
In a way we have a litte empirical study running since 10 years in the Profiler. In the AMP section we have the well known parameters Tube Shape - widely varying the distortion curve - and Tube Bias - controlling the assymetry of the amp distortion in an extremely wide range.
We did, however, NOT market these parameters as crucial keys to achieve a better tone, as we felt that the impact is very limited. Still the parameters are freely accessible since day one.
You might be aware, that no single Profiler player has ever discovered these parameters by himself and identified them as a true sonical innovation over tube amps, and a crucial tool for the search of your individual tone.
Have you tried them?
To me this is a proof that diode configurations in ODs are highly overrated.
No, I don't have a great video of it. It's subtle but I've heard the difference in my experience though, that's all I can say.
Thanks for expounding your position. Your approach for bringing down effects to their essential is appreciated as it makes them a pleasure to use.
I'll check out the Tube Shape and Bias controls. But even your manual says there is indeed a subtle difference when you change the Tube-Bias/clipping-asymmetry, which has been my exact position this whole time. Whether this subtle change is overrated or not is a matter of opinion of course.
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No, it does not become a hard clipper, because there is a second parallel clean path that stays, because it is not affected by the drive pot.
Named "Network 1" in the electrosmash analysis. And it can easily be heard in the Klon's output.
Btw. the term hard clipper and soft clipper is a bit misleading as used in the Strymon analysis.
Soft clipper is usually the name for a "soft knee" distortion, not for a distortion with a parallel clean path.
Slim Down narrows down the frequency responce around the "Definition" frequency, wherever it's set.
The second clean path is low-passed at 100 Hz and goes to add some bass to the final output. The clipping characteristic for most of the freq spectrum is unchanged by the second clean path. Running a SPICE sim for sanity check, and removing the second clean path does very little to change the shape of the clipping above the bass freqs.
In the diode clipping pedal world, it seems that's how these terms are used. I agree it's misleading and makes the convo unclear, I could've chosen my words better.
Thanks for the clarification on the Slim Down parameter, and actually clarified the Definition parameter for me as well.
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i had also been thinking long those lines and think it would definitely be a workable solution which CK and team could surely achieve. However, you will still get FUZZaholics complaining that it feel wrong using an expression pedal instead of the guitar’s volume control etc.
i wonder is another way of achieving something similar would be to link this virtual capacitance function to input signal level. Sort of like having compression triggered by a side chain or the ducking function on the KPA. As the input signal is reduced this virtual capacitance feature would automatically be increased. There might even be a two control format (similar to the way Definition and Slim Down interact in the Kemper Drive) to capture a wide range of behaviours of different pickups and fuzz pedals.I am sure CK is well aware of the effect we are talking about so I wouldn’t be surprised if he has already devised some cunning plan for world domination of virtual fuzz effects ?
The impedance interaction is not dependent on input signal voltage level. You can play soft with the guitar's volume knob up, and the fuzz's response be different than when you have the volume knob down and playing moderately.
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i confess I am no technical expert and most of the Klon discussion is way over my head but I did read the Strymon White Paper yeky83 posted. This seems to suggest that Kemper took the approach of providing the soft clipping options in the Kemper Drive and the Hard Clipping in the Full OD. In which case, why would you need to add hard clipping to the Kemper Drive?
You make a good point. Maybe they don't need to add hard clipping option to the Kemper Drive, but then it'd be nice if they made the Full OC more flexible. Currently it just models the OCD.
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I can recommend you this article: Klon Centaur Analysis
I see you are well versed on electric topics, so do I, but if you check the details, you are half right, the clean signal gets sent to ground as drive goes up but that means you get less and less dry signal into the output path, not more,
You're confused. Nowhere did I suggest that as the drive goes up you get more dry signal into the output path.
Quotethe hardclipping you mention has nothing to do with the amount of dry into the out signal.Yes it does. CK suggests as much in his post last page, or read here under "Soft Clippers" https://www.strymon.net/single…ologies-sunset-riverside/
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Nope.
It‘s more the opposite.
When you turn the drive knob down then the distorted path is blended out to create a clean boost.
When you turn the drive knob up on the Klon, the main clean signal path is also blended out by getting shunted to virtual ground. It definitely becomes a hard clipper as you turn the drive up. I'm sure you know this so I don't know what the disagreement is here.
Does the Kemper Drive exhibit a hard clipping behavior at the high/max drive Klon preset settings?
What does the Slim Down parameter do exactly? Is it simply a boost around 1 kHz?
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The difference is simply, that on overdrive pedals only, a good portion of the clean signal (undistorted, uncompressed) is mixed to the distorted signal, preserving some uncompressed playing dynamics in parallel to the distortion.
With the Klon, isn't it the case that the clean signal path gets mixed out as the drive knob is turned up, and it becomes more of a hard clipper?
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Hi guys!
Thanks for your feedback.
As some of you mentioned, the Full OC is not part of the Kemper Drive, because it does not belong to the family of overdrives, but to the family of distortions. So are all the other distortion models, except the Green Scream and the Fuzz DS.
It is a bit disturbing that the the guitar world in the past decades failed to tell the musicians which devices are overdrives and which are distortions, and to find a clear distinction.
Same with the story of the choice of clipping diodes and their symmetrical or assymmetrical configuration. It sounds like nice marketing to promote different diode choice or topology. Some overdrive pedals even allow to change the setting with switches on the fly. Those differences can be well analyzed analytically, by using sine as a test tone. But once you play guitar, the only change is the headroom, perceived as a significant change in Drive and Volume. Once you re-adjust Drive and Volume, the sound is the same again, no perceivable difference.
You might not find a single person on the internet, who shows the true sonic differences of diode configurations in ODs, while keeping all surrounding aspects neutral.
We could have added an additional switch or selector for these aspects, if they were significant.
We are here in a beta test, so we would be happy to be proven wrong ...
Some Jackson Audio products change clipping configurations while compensating for the change in clipping-threshold/headroom. You can go check out some demos. Is it a subtle difference? Yes but it is audible and perceivable IME. If you could add additional switch options, that'd be great.
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If so, what is the difference between an overdrive and a distortion ?
I know the frontier is fuzzy (!) between the two, but between a Rat and a Tube screamer, i can't swallow that the difference is on gain alone.It's usually the difference between soft and hard clipping circuits, and is the case when comparing the TS to a Rat. Here's a relatively easy read from Strymon: https://www.strymon.net/single…ologies-sunset-riverside/
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It is really kind of cool to an old engineer like me (geek). With very little firmware space, and minimal processing overhead, they managed to recreate a whole family of OD stomps. I know that someone pointed out that one stomp used a half wave clipping rectifier while another used a full wave clipping rectifier and therefore concluded that a single algorithm couldn't possibly cover both. That is simply not true. It is likely that in the digital realm, the system responses still laid in the same plane of a single algorithm..... so it can actually sound the same as either one of these circuits .....
Sure a single algorithm can cover multiple types of clipping. But it's patently obvious that's not what's going on with the Kemper Drive if you had any knowledge of the circuits involved. The Kemper Drive purports to duplicate both TS808 and SD-1 with the same settings. One is a symmetric clipper, the other is an asymmetric clipper. It's a USP of Kemper indeed to make effects flexible yet very easy to sound good, great. But there's no behind the scenes clipping type adjustments going on here, it's essentially a TS with very flexible EQ options.
