Playing bass guitar with a Strat

  • Could use a little help.

    For a new live project I want to play E-Guit, A-Guit and sometime bass with one Strat.

    For A-Guit I have already a useful solution with the KPA and even hope for much improvement with the new version.

    Maybe I have to carry an additional Accustic guitar with me, if more sophisticate fingerpicking is wanted but I would like to avoid carrying a bass too .:)


    With bass I lack the experience and knowledge for a good tone with the KPA except that you can use the transpose function.

    I need profiles or tweaking tips for an acoustic bass tone and for vintage rock bass sounds.

    I don't actually intend to use fx (if I do, I will use it sparingly)


    Thanks in advance.

  • Harry, there are some great bass profiles in the factory content. Plenty of good old Ampeg stuff but also the Tone Hammer and Eden profiles work really well with a real bass.


    As for getting the Strat to fulfill the bass duties, it is never going to be perfect but I’m sure you can get a decent sound. I would experiment with transpose down an octave and compare this to the analog octave stomp. See what you prefer. It might even be worth trying parallel path and combining transpose on one sognal with analog octave on the other. I would also try mixing in just a little of the normal guitar signal for some attack. It was a common technique back in the Motown era to have a guitar doubling the bass line to help it cut through.

  • As for getting the Strat to fulfill the bass duties, it is never going to be perfect but I’m sure you can get a decent sound.

    I'm pretty shure that it's possibleup to certain level but i do not know the secrets.

    I do not have an analog octave stomp to compare.


    I'm actually less worried about attack. My previous attempts with the transpose function have not given me much reason to complain about this, but rather an irritation, because the transpose function causes some latency.

    Even Kemper cannot fool the physics and for the frequence analysis of a tone at least 2 half waves are necessary.

    That's as much as I remember and if I calculated right about 6 or 12 ms at the deep E (about 82 Hz) depending on whether you tilt the negative side of the wave upwards or not in analog or digital mode and then analyze it. And this is a theoretical value.


    With training you can compensate this with playing but not if you hear both signals.

    It is a fundamental phenomenon that a bass tone develops noticeably slower in the room and that you have to play bass sometimes before the beat, depending on the music style. Good Bass player do this by heart or they know that.


    Anyway thanks for the tips.:)

  • use the Pitch Shifter before the STACK, so the Profile gets to work with the 'proper' signal, instead of pitch shifting the processed signal.


    Use the formant shift feature to get a more authentic sound.


    An Ampeg or Tech21 Bass Driver Profile from our Bass Rig Packs is probably a good start.


    I can also recommend the Wedgie 5mm Medium rubber picks that sound a lot like you're using fingers.


    hth

  • All good points Harry.


    When I mentioned Analog Octaver, I was referring to the Kemper effect in the Pitchshifter.


    The reason for blending in a little guitar for attack is to help full the listened into thinking there isn’t any latency. The initial attack and timing for musical feel can come from the guitar signal with the bass note developing behind it as the physics catch up.

  • I'm my studio stuff, I generate the bass with a very simple, free vst plugin called 4 Front bass, which emulates a Fender Jazz. The main difference to Harry's scenario is that the pitch shifter isn't required as it's designed to properly emulate the lower pitches. I then reamp the signal through the Kemper's factory bass profiles.


    I was previously just doing the "EQ / compress the DI" thing with the 4 Front and was never all that happy with the sound. The first time I brought in a Kemper bass track it made a huge difference in the quality of the mix.

    I would also try mixing in just a little of the normal guitar signal for some attack. It was a common technique back in the Motown era to have a guitar doubling the bass line to help it cut through.

    Cool, never knew that.


    I'm going to experiment with including some of the DI along with the Kemper, perhaps EQed a bit to emphasize the higher end. I assume Harry's focusing on live applications so he won't have to fight this battle, but one of the challenges of modern mixing is that it's very common for people to listen on their cell phones or pads.


    Without earbuds, the bass can disappear almost completely, so the Motown trick can help keep the bass line from vaporizing. With earbuds (at least Apple's), the sub frequencies are massively hyped. So, to keep the bass from washing out the entire song, I find I have to do some high pass filtering that again can diminish the bass. Either way, whether it's my DI or Harry's Strat, having a bit of extra bite on the top end will probably make for much better definition of the bass lines.

  • When I mentioned Analog Octaver, I was referring to the Kemper effect in the Pitchshifter.

    Right now, I feel like a rookie. ;(


    I don't find an effect "Pitch shifter", despite eagerly turning the browser and/or Type Knob,

    There is a "pedal pitch" - but I don't want a pitch pedal (if the heel and toe pitch is set to -12 I can play at least 1 octave lower - but I can't find a formant shifter). It comes however immediately to Intereferencen if I play 2 tones at same time.


    "Harmonic Pitch" has formant shift but expected input at Voice 1 and Voice 2 and the input of a key.

    I want to be able to play in all keys without tweak. :)

    Besides, I still hear the original signal . With Mix =+50 no second voice but interferences if I play 2 tones at same time.

    "Chromatic Pitch" has a similar behavior.



    "Analog Octaver" doesn't make a 2nd voice with Voice Balance +50 and Mix +50, but also strange effects when I hit 2 notes.


    "Transpose" with -12 gives me the most authentic sound at the moment. But it doesn't have a format shifter and is sometimes very strange when playing 2 notes. Not as much as pedal pitch and the others. I can't say if this is due to a slight detuning of the strings.


    A noticeable improvement is the proposed use of bass profiles from the factory setting. !


    Using my finger is not a big problem . I used to play bass for 4 years in a band approx. 30 years ago

  • Sharry wrote:

    "Harmonic Pitch" has formant shift but expected input at Voice 1 and Voice 2 and the input of a key.


    Set both voices to -12, and you can select any key. When the pitch is exactly one octave down, the key does not matter. Use the mix controls to remove the normal guitar, and limit the octave down to one voice, if you prefer it that way.

  • I've been having a little play around with it too this afternoon.


    Analog Octaver is OK but not great. The strange sound you mention is because the original octave pedals were monophonic so they get confused when you play two notes simultaneously. The Analog Octaver stomp presumably tries to recreate this for the sake of authenticity.


    I wouldn't use Harmonic Pitch shift because it can also give strange results with notes passing notes.


    Transpose is definitely the best option in my opinion. I got pretty good results by using a bass amp in the stack section. Putting a Transpose effect in either Stomp C or D. Running parallel path with a compression in Stomp A and maybe even a tiny hint of a distortion or Shaper in B to add a little grit and attack. Run the Parallel mix pretty low though. You only want it to give a little hint of a note because it's an octave up but it makes all the difference in my opinion because it tricks the listener into thinking there isn't any latency. I was jamming alon with some funky lines and a drum loop and it worked OK. Clearly I would still rather just plug my Fender Jazz into the Kemper and go for it but it worked well enough to do the job and ave carrying an extra instrument.

  • Sharry wrote:

    "Harmonic Pitch" has formant shift but expected input at Voice 1 and Voice 2 and the input of a key.


    Set both voices to -12, and you can select any key. When the pitch is exactly one octave down, the key does not matter. Use the mix controls to remove the normal guitar, and limit the octave down to one voice, if you prefer it that way.

    Yep, I considered that at the end that for octaves a key has obviously no influenece , but I was really disturbed when I played double notes.

    Perhaps a Harmonic Pitch before the transpose set to unisono for both voices would spend a formant shift.

    Wasting of effect blocks is not problem for me for this applikation.

  • Transpose is definitely the best option in my opinion. I got pretty good results by using a bass amp in the stack section. Putting a Transpose effect in either Stomp C or D. Running parallel path with a compression in Stomp A and maybe even a tiny hint of a distortion or Shaper in B to add a little grit and attack. Run the Parallel mix pretty low though. You only want it to give a little hint of a note because it's an octave up but it makes all the difference in my opinion because it tricks the listener into thinking there isn't any latency. I was jamming alon with some funky lines and a drum loop and it worked OK. Clearly I would still rather just plug my Fender Jazz into the Kemper and go for it but it worked well enough to do the job and ave carrying an extra instrument.

    Yes, "transpose" and bass amp profiles seems to me the best solution at the moment.

    Playing with the parallel path can't hurt.

    I sold my Gibson "The Grabber" bass half a year ago after 30 years of just resting.:)

    Who knows the future?;)

  • Putting a Transpose effect in either Stomp C or D. Running parallel path with a compression in Stomp A and maybe even a tiny hint of a distortion or Shaper in B to add a little grit and attack. Run the Parallel mix pretty low though. You only want it to give a little hint of a note because it's an octave up but it makes all the difference in my opinion because it tricks the listener into thinking there isn't any latency.

    Thanks, man. I'm going to have to play with that in my application as well, might give me better results than including the DI.


    As an aside, I've been playing with octaves this week for some Deep Purple stuff (Lay down, stay down). It's there in general but still trying to get it dialed in. To my ear all of the pitch / transpose stuff imparts a different tonal quality that I'm still getting used to.

  • I one band several years ago, I playedas substitute due illness of the gitarrist. The bassplayer was playing such a bass ukulele. .The sound is not bad

    Maybe this could be a good idea and is has some show effect. :)

    Sometime I use a tenor ukulele why not a bass ukulele.