DI Profile + Power Amp + Cab: Does it feel like the real deal?

Quote from xtcblue

Hi All, I am almost certainly going to be a Kemper owner in the next few weeks . However was wondering how the kemper + power amp feels works as a replacement for a tube head?

For example, if I DI profile a JCM 800 head and use the Kemper + a Solid State Power amp into a 4X12 Marshall Cab, will it sound the same as the JCM 800 head directly into the same 4X12 Marshall Cab? I am willing to accept that it might not be 100% exact, but from your experiences does this method sound as raw, dynamic, alive and "in the room" as playing the real head + cab?

Would appreciate your inputs and tips!

Thanks!

Display More

Short answer: yes.
Long answer: as the KPA's cab simulation can't be turned off 100%, some problems might occur, but with the profile of the same cab that you're using, I don't think it would really matter.

Quote from xtcblue

What if the amp has been DI Profiled with a DI box into the KPA and not through a miced cabinet? Therefore we would be getting only the pre+power section of the amp profiled and wouldnt need to remove the cab simulation on the Kemper profile in this case as we have added no cab during profiling. Am I right?

The KPA would still add a cab section, and turning it off wouldn't give you the results you want I think.

I am very unhappy with the results I've been getting, FWIW many others don't seem to be as picky as me.

I posted this: http://kemper-amps.com/forum/i…page=Thread&threadID=4680

Please note the difference in EQ curve between original signal and DI profiled. Sound clip provided as well. I observed a much more noticeable difference in "feel" and "punch" in the room with a poweramp plus cabinet (multiple versions of both tried).

CK seems to be addressing some of these issues in future updates by what I read. But as it stands today, I find it unusable. YMMV.

Quote from xtcblue

^

Ok, I need some clarity on this

So what you are saying is that the KPA is programmed to think that there is a cab included with every profile regardless of whether the profile has been physically captured from a miced cab or DI? Therefore if you switch off a cab from any profile, the KPA removes frequencies that it 'thinks' represents a cab. Is that correct?

However, what I am trying to achieve is very simple: Profile an JCM800 head DI (via DI/loadbox attached to the speaker outs) and then use that profile live by connecting the KPA to a Solidstate poweramp and a Marshall Cab. I want to use the DI profile as is, and want it captured in the KPA without any modification of any sort, since the amplification and cab simulation will come from a physical SS amp and a physical cab.

Any experiences of this would be much appreciated

Display More

Your assumptions are correct, the KPA always thinks that there is a cab involved, therefore turning the cab section off after DI profiling will yield bad results.
It's been officially announced by Mr. Kemper that they will address this issue in the future, but it is unsolved currently.

Hi xtcblue,
welcome here

Your assumptions are right: KPA is not designed to profile parts of a sound chain in a linear way at the moment.

This doesn't mean you can't do what you asked or you won't like the result, but it will sound different. IOW,

the second part of the disequation being the optimal implementation

This happens for two reasons mainly:

• Currently, he KPA expects to find a cab through the signal path (and tries to elaborate the interaction
  between the poweramp and the cab anyway). This is indeed one of the
  strongest points in the machine, the complex and dynamic interaction
  between poweramp and cab being one of the most meaningful aspects of a
  rig reproduction (there were most simulations fail).
  

  
  

• When using a real poweramp with a real cab you're creating a new electric interaction which was not present before (and we know this is - sonically speaking - perhaps the most important part). It would be wrong to assume that a "transparent" poweramp creates a "void" interaction with the real cab. Again, this doesn't mean it will sound bad: but it will not sound the same for sure.

HTH

I'd like to add that intentionally, the KPA was designed and meant for studio and live FRFR use.

If you profile di then to get the same sound as your di you simply don't turn off the cab. End of problem.

Quote from richaxes

I'd like to add that intentionally, the KPA was designed and meant for studio and live FRFR use.

This

Quote from xtcblue

Thanks for the comprehensive explanation. I have a few reactions:

a) My personal feeling (and I am not yet a KPA owner so this is based on forum surfing), is that if Kemper wants to build a poweramp into the KPA it will be imperative that the DI profile performance is perfected first. I am sure Christoph is working on that.

b) Finally, it seems to me that the overall consensus (at the current time) on using a DI profile +
physical Poweramp + physical Cab, is that it will sound different from
the physical tube amp rig. But to what extent would you say that it is a
'usable' possibility? Browsing through previous threads on the forum
seem to reveal reactions that are extremely positive and some not. Hence, would you be disappointed if you bought the KPA (at firmware 1.08) with the intention of using it this way 50% of the time? I know this is subjective, but would like to hear opinions.

Cheers!

(PS: I'm still getting a KPA)

Display More

As far as I know, in this video, Pete is using his XTC Profiles with cab turned off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crrWehpT9jM&feature=youtu.be

I get great sounds through a power amp and cabs. There are so many DI profiles and non-DI profiles that kick ass through my setup. I'm not going to get into how "authentic" it sounds but to me this question is moot. You can tweak away and achieve great tones like anything else. And anyone who says you will be disappointed likely hasn't tried such a rig...

The other day in a music store we tried the KPA into a EHX Magnum44 into a 2x12 Marshall cab, cabs 'Off' on the KPA...sounded great, and that's through the cheapest possible amplification system.

Quote from xtcblue

Thanks for the comprehensive explanation. I have a few reactions:

a) My personal feeling (and I am not yet a KPA owner so this is based on forum surfing), is that if Kemper wants to build a poweramp into the KPA it will be imperative that the DI profile performance is perfected first. I am sure Christoph is working on that.

b) Finally, it seems to me that the overall consensus (at the current time) on using a DI profile +
physical Poweramp + physical Cab, is that it will sound different from
the physical tube amp rig. But to what extent would you say that it is a
'usable' possibility? Browsing through previous threads on the forum
seem to reveal reactions that are extremely positive and some not. Hence, would you be disappointed if you bought the KPA (at firmware 1.08) with the intention of using it this way 50% of the time? I know this is subjective, but would like to hear opinions.

Cheers!

(PS: I'm still getting a KPA)

Display More

Hi again

I'm not sure I see the consequences in point a). A built-in poweramp (which will be a linear amp) will allow you to for example use passive FRFR cabs instead of active ones, and it no way means it's primarily meant for using DI profiles, nor will it be involved in the profiling process.
You'll need a poweramp anyway in order to use the KPA (apart from the HP out), and a built-in solution is just a facility.

Anyway, as I was pointing out and others have stated before me, different doesn't mean bad. In the sea (? Italian slang ;D) of available profiles you will likely find several profiles and combinations that fit your needs/tastes. OTOH, you can't be certain until you actually use it. As for many high-level solutions (like the Axe-Fx for example), many may like them but this is not a guaranty for anyone else!

Summing up, if fidelity means less to you than effectiveness and usability, definitely give it a try! And, you might end up discovering the world of FRFR and not being disappointed

Quote from xtcblue

^ Thanks for the reply. Yes I guess the in-built poweramp could be viewed as a driver for passive FRFR cabs instead of a guitar cab. However, in my opinion using the KPA with a guitar cab and hence making it a direct replacement for a tube head (or 100 different heads) is one of the most powerful alternatives that the KPA can offer, considering guitar cabs are specially designed to amplify guitar tones. Not that FRFR systems/cabs are not good, but it would be the icing on the cake the KPA could give the emotional/sonic feeling of a cranked amp through a real cab. From some of the responses, it looks like it does to a large extent already. Therefore, I meant that if Christoph is further able perfect DI profiling for use with a real cab, it would be something that a guitar player's dreams are made of

The only little flaw in your concept is the fact how different every guitar cab sounds, and how similar can heads sound through the same cab.
I'm sure there is a reason why Christoph originally decided to go more in the FRFR direction, and it must be the ability of really faithfully reproducing tones, what you wouldn't be able to do with a guitar cab that's fitted with a given speaker and that's all. That speaker has some characteristics and response character, and you can't get rid of that distinctive sound. Let's say, that you would want to use a Plexi with a Greenback cab through your real cab which is a V30 cab... your results just won't be true enough.

Quote from richaxes

The only little flaw in your concept is the fact how different every guitar cab sounds, and how similar can heads sound through the same cab.

That's the point... I agree!
KPA is amazing reproducing a MIC'D amp and there are a lot of situations where you need to hear a mic'd amp through headphones or flat response monitor: big stages (the amp is often far from you and you need to use a monitor to hear your guitar), quiet stages (with the amp inside a iso-box), in-ear monitoring, records, etc etc

Using a KPA with a cabinet and a mic in front of it doesn't look as the best choice to me.
But, to be honest, I never tried...