Atomic CLR vs. Matrix Q 12a vs. Camper 112 CX

    Great review!


    Up to now do I use my KPA only in my studio - but when I ever like to use it live I'll check out the Matrix Q12a.

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    Great Profiles --> soundside.de

    First my respect to the authors of this thread. The conclusion that the two systems are on par is embrased and batled in different forums on the internet. I am sure the OP's have received some pm's to bend their view and opinions. I just hope they stand strong.


    It is a delight a NON-scientiffic bullshit method is used. Using your ears is always the best.
    "Scientiffic" methods to explain the quality of commercial product is regulary used to sell face cream, tooth paste etc. When science enters the world of profits the truth is often bended or neglacted.


    Let this just be a small hazard warning when you collect your so called scientiffic arguments to buy product A or B. Again use YOUR ears. The rest is snake oil or at least a huge load of crap.

    Quote from DADA

    First my respect to the authors of this thread. The conclusion that the two systems are on par is embrased and batled in different forums on the internet. I am sure the OP's have received some pm's to bend their view and opinions. I just hope they stand strong.


    It is a delight a NON-scientiffic bullshit method is used. Using your ears is always the best.
    "Scientiffic" methods to explain the quality of commercial product is regulary used to sell face cream, tooth paste etc. When science enters the world of profits the truth is often bended or neglacted.


    Let this just be a small hazard warning when you collect your so called scientiffic arguments to buy product A or B. Again use YOUR ears. The rest is snake oil or at least a huge load of crap.


    Thank you. I agree wholeheartedly with what you say.
    It's true I got some flack on TGP when Jay Mitchell in his typical condescending way tried to jump on my back trying to belittle me and the methodology. I even registered there (wouldn't have otherwise) to defend our approach.
    But not too many people followed him actually which surprises me a bit.
    It seems that the 'use your ears' approach was not so bad in the end and that even the poor video documentation convinced most of the readers / listeners that this was a valuable test after all.
    I see though that some people get way too anal about this really.

    Quote from Ingolf

    Thank you. I agree wholeheartedly with what you say.
    It's true I got some flack on TGP when Jay Mitchell in his typical condescending way tried to jump on my back trying to belittle me and the methodology. I even registered there (wouldn't have otherwise) to defend our approach.
    But not too many people followed him actually which surprises me a bit.

    You defended yourself with respect and dignity, like a gentleman.
    When people see that, they know who to 'follow', they 'followed' you. :thumbup:

    Quote from Guitartone

    You defended yourself with respect and dignity, like a gentleman.
    When people see that, they know who to 'follow', they 'followed' you. :thumbup:

    For sure Ingolf is a gentleman and I'm really angry about the unbelievable unfriendly and negative response of his -meanwhile closed- thread at TGP. We did that little shootout for simply 2 reasons:


    1) We were just happy to have the chance to get the CLR, Q12a und CX in one room to compare the cabs.
    2) We wanted to help all the KPA-users, who normally would have to order all three cabs. I didn't see one of the cabs in the biggest music stores in Germany (I'm living in Germanys 2nd biggest city...) and I had to order the Q12a directly at Matrix in Great Britain.


    I'm really sick of all the fanboy-posts ("my gear is always the best because I use it...) and I'm also sick of the lack of friendliness and politeness in a lot of discussions.


    I don't mind being criticized just because I'm a professional guitar-player for 25 years. If some may get cynical about that, it's their problem, I'm very glad to be able to live convienantly from playing guitar (+ producing, writing and more). It's like very often in life: if people offer something you can use or ignore it.... ;)

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    first name: Guenter / family name: Haas / www.guenterhaas.de

    But the CLR... ?(


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiZNSzWIaLo It was supposed to be the chosen one! It was said, that it would destroy the competition, not join them! Bring tonal balance into FRFR-land, not leave it in tonal imbalance and boominess!


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r21CMDyPuGo One does not simply post criticism on TGP! The only acceptable opinion is guarded by more than just forumites with an agenda: There's moderators there, who do not sleep! And the great JM is ever watchful!


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4UfAL9f74I Youuuu ...shalll not......destroy the hype!

    I don't mind being criticized just because I'm a professional guitar-player for 25 years. If some may get cynical about that, it's their problem, I'm very glad to be able to live convienantly from playing guitar (+ producing, writing and more). It's like very often in life: if people offer something you can use or ignore it.... ;) Guenterhaas


    It's probably just some jealousy! I believe most all of us wish we could be making our living just playing the thing we love :thumbup: I know i havent been able to ( after doing so for nearly 30 tears) make a living at it for the last 20 years

    Quote from Ingolf

    Thank you. I agree wholeheartedly with what you say.
    It's true I got some flack on TGP when Jay Mitchell in his typical condescending way tried to jump on my back trying to belittle me and the methodology. I even registered there (wouldn't have otherwise) to defend our approach.
    But not too many people followed him actually which surprises me a bit.
    It seems that the 'use your ears' approach was not so bad in the end and that even the poor video documentation convinced most of the readers / listeners that this was a valuable test after all.
    I see though that some people get way too anal about this really.


    Jay Mitchell, as I'm sure you know, designed the CLR. Jay Mitchell is an Axe-FX fanboy. So he's in bed with the Axe-FX militants, which includes more than half the mods of TGP. Saying that any speaker on the planet could sound as good as the CLR is blasphemy on TGP, and you'll get no fair treatment when you insult the anointed one over there.


    It's sad, because your comparison video has great value to many people.

    PRS Singlecuts
    Kemper PowerHead/Remote



    Quote from skoczy

    When you turn the knob on KPA, you wake up the captured souls of tube amps living inside.

    Once again, I am forced to post here to correct several egregious misstatements.


    1. The notion that the (non-) conclusions of the "review" have anything to do with my observations is nothing but self-serving silliness. Bad methodology is what it is regardless of the results it produces. And the result here is inconclusive anyway: all three speakers were declared equivalent, with the qualifier that one of them - which in all probability simply has a prudent amount of voltage gain - is not as "loud" (voltage gain and potential loudness are often confused) as the others.


    2. I am no "fanboy" of anything, least of all the Axe-Fx. I have publicly explained certain design flaws in the unit and have been threatened privately by Cliff Chase for doing so.


    3. I am not "in bed" with the moderators of any forum.


    If you want to evaluate loudspeakers for use with a modeler (or "profiler"), and you truly believe your modeler is capable of producing the sounds you want, you need to use a methodical approach to identify the best loudspeaker for your purpose. Here is a link to such a methodology that I posted several years ago: http://www.setbb.com/axefx/vie…e35389c86ab0&mforum=axefx . (fifth post form the top) I posted this well before I had any interest in the loudspeaker choices made by modeler users. Like all well-founded practices, it is just as valid now as it ever was.

    Quote from JayMitchell


    If you want to evaluate loudspeakers for use with a modeler (or "profiler"), and you truly believe your modeler is capable of producing the sounds you want, you need to use a methodical approach to identify the best loudspeaker for your purpose. Here is a link to such a methodology that I posted several years ago: http://www.setbb.com/axefx/vie…e35389c86ab0&mforum=axefx . (fifth post form the top) I posted this well before I had any interest in the loudspeaker choices made by modeler users. Like all well-founded practices, it is just as valid now as it ever was.



    So I guess the " Use your ears and see what you like best " is a bad way to select gear.


    Well... I'm gonna keep doing just that no matter what who say...


    LOL there aren't any egregious misstatements here, only things that you don't agree with. Learn the difference. Your reaction to this would be mildly amusing if it wasn't so sad.


    You are as bad as Scott Peterson, chasing people from forum to forum across the internet whenever you hear that someone has criticized you. Grow up. People disagree with you on some things - GET OVER IT. Your endless need to try to convince people that you are right and they are wrong is both silly and tiring. Face it - some people don't agree with you. They don't like your methodology. They get better results doing things differently. It doesn't make them wrong and you right. MOVE ON.


    Guess what - you have lost another customer (well, Atomic has). I have been considering which FRFR cabinet to buy. There is no doubt the CLR you designed is a great product. But after reading your acerbic, condescending comments for years on TGP, and now here, this is the last straw. I will never purchase any product you are involved with - I simply refuse to reward this kind of behavior with my patronage. And I will counsel others to do the same.


    The only thing which might be true in your post above is the part about Cliff threatening you for speaking about design flaws in the Axe-FX. I don't know if you actually did this, but if you did, that sort of response from Cliff would be consistent. For the 3 years that I gigged an Axe-FX and participated in their forum, his intolerance for even constructive criticism was legendary.


    Kinda like yours.

    PRS Singlecuts
    Kemper PowerHead/Remote



    Quote from skoczy

    When you turn the knob on KPA, you wake up the captured souls of tube amps living inside.

    To "desiato" - everything I have posted here is the truth. When you resort to name-calling and slander as you do here, you just make it evident just how little of substance you have to say.


    To "mullassiff" - If you will click on the link I posted and actually read what I typed there, you will see that the procedure necessitates "using your ears," only in a way that will ensure you make the best choice.

    Quote from JayMitchell


    To "mullassiff" - If you will click on the link I posted and actually read what I typed there, you will see that the procedure necessitates "using your ears," only in a way that will ensure you make the best choice.


    I really dont care about your " scientific self righteous testings"


    I trust my ears. Period.


    No link or comment or whatever you have to try and justify your product will change that.

    Quote from JayMitchell

    To "desiato" - everything I have posted here is the truth. When you resort to name-calling and slander as you do here, you just make it evident just how little of substance you have to say.


    LOL - yea, we get it that YOU think what you say is the truth. The problem is that it ain't. Your inability to exercise even the smallest amount of self-review is unfortunate.


    You should also learn to read better. You accuse me of name-calling? I never once called you a name. I said:


    1) Your childish reaction to criticism is sad
    2) grow up
    3) You have an endless need to prove you are right
    4) Your comments to those who question your methods is often acerbic and condescending
    5) You are intolerant of criticism


    None of that is name calling or slander. It's simply a description of your forum behavior. LEARN THE DIFFERENCE. You simply don't like to be criticized, and you really need to get over that. You won't get a pity party here.

    PRS Singlecuts
    Kemper PowerHead/Remote



    Quote from skoczy

    When you turn the knob on KPA, you wake up the captured souls of tube amps living inside.

    Hey guys calm down..... in my opinion all 3 cabs are worth the money and all 3 cabs are good products. Even if the CX is "quieter", it's a great cab and if you use the monitor-out of the KPA it will be loud enough, too. Actually Q12a and CX use the same speaker, maybe our expression "not loud enough for a drummer" was wrong.


    I don't get into any "religious" CLR-discussions here, I just know by experience that American products very often are "the best in the world", at least that's what the American companies are thinking. When it comes to music-gear that's simply not the truth, for sure many great products are made in the USA (or like Apple-products designed in the States and produced in China), but there's a lot more in this world.


    For example: a lot of great studio-gear is made in Germany (Neumann, SPL, Klein+Hummel, ADAM, RME ect.) and also a lot of music-software like Steinberg Cubase, Emagic Logic (Apple bought the company 2002), Native Instruments, Ableton Live, Celemony Melodyne, Samplitude/Sequoia ect. ect. and finally -not to forget- the KPA. ;)


    So please no "Weisenheimer"-discussions (is that the right word?), there is place for all of us and for me CLR, Q12a and CX are on the same (high) level.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    first name: Guenter / family name: Haas / www.guenterhaas.de

    Quote from guenterhaas

    I don't get into any "religious" CLR-discussions here, I just know by experience that American products very often are "the best in the world", at least that's what the American companies are thinking. When it comes to music-gear that's simply not the truth, for sure many great products are made in the USA (or like Apple-products designed in the States and produced in China), but there's a lot more in this world.


    For example: a lot of great studio-gear is made in Germany (Neumann, SPL, Klein+Hummel, ADAM, RME ect.) and also a lot of music-software like Steinberg Cubase, Emagic Logic (Apple bought the company 2002), Native Instruments, Ableton Live, Celemony Melodyne, Samplitude/Sequoia ect. ect. and finally -not to forget- the KPA.


    :thumbup: And UK, of course. And for people like me, living in Europe, some of these products are cheaper than USA products. IMO the comparative you did is really useful to many europeans. Some of us have been in the CLR waiting list for 6 months while there are high quality alternatives in Europe.