EQ tweaking of hi-gain-profiles for live usage?

    Hey there!
    We are currently using two Kempers in our reheasal room instead of our AMPS and Cabinets. The Kempers go directly to the PA.
    We noticed that profiles need some tweaking if you want to play them on rehearsal/live volume.
    Without any treatment, all the profiles tend to sound very fizzy at high volumes and the overall sound is just a mess.
    I can only explain that effect to myself with the human ear not being linear over different volumes.


    So all the profiles I tweaked at home sound like shit in loud rehearsals.
    How do you guys tweak your hi-gain profiles for live/rehearsal usage?
    Do you just roll of some treble and/or presence or do you add some mids or do you even use a studio eq in the X or MOD slot after the amp?


    Some weeks ago i saw a interview video with a guitarist of Amon Amarth and he was saying that the Kemper is great because they can now take their studio sound to the stage.
    But with the problem written above in mind, it can't be possibile to just use the studio sound live (and with great resluts) without any treatment.

    This has been discussed very often.
    Google Fletcher - Munson.
    Basically it means we as human beings dial in too much treble and bass at low volumes (that's what loudness switches are for in HiFi stereo amplifiers).


    First you should make it a habit to tweak your rigs at gig volume.
    Second dial out treble and bass and bring on more mids to compensate what you have already done neglecting the Fletcher- Munson curve.

    If you take all of Amon Amarth's instruments on stage, run them into outboard effects, mix them down and play them over the PA - the studio sound can be great.
    If, however, you want a PA to sound like a guitar amp does in a room, you'll have to tweak.


    Mids will go (way, way) up, highs will go down (depending on your room, test to see if treble or presence work better) and you'll need to HPF and LPF, which you can only do per-profile.

    "But dignity is difficult to maintain
    stamina requires constant upkeep
    repetition is boring
    and you pay for grace."

    +1 with all the above.


    I'd also add that in a different place you have two very important factors which are often really underestimated:

    • the room's reflections and sonic character are completely different (and emerge more an more as long as you go up with the volume);
    • often you use different PA/monitors/loudspeakers.
      In your case, using the room's PA means different mixer pre-amps, different poweramps and different loudspeaker. It's a miracle you even recognize your own patches... :D

    The most obvious option would be to shape your sounds using the same room and the same PA. OTOH, this would create an issue when you play in different places with different PAs...
    Having said this, the best choice remains equipping yourself with the most linear and transparent cab(s)/PA you can afford, so that to minimize the differences all over the places. And enjoy a beautiful sound whenever you use them :D


    HTH

    "Having said this, the best choice remains equipping yourself with the most linear and transparent cab(s)/PA you can afford, so that to minimize the differences all over the places. And enjoy a beautiful sound whenever you use them"


    +1! The Kemper cannot sound better than your rehearsal PA.


    What speakers are you using in rehearsal? If they have characteristics that make them less accurate than studio monitors, then those inaccuracies will affect the sound of the Kemper.


    I don't have to tweak new profiles for live use. If I hear a profile that I like when it is played loud in my studio monitors, I can take it to a gig, and use it unaltered, at stage volume, listening to it with a Bose L1 and single subwoofer (I have the Bose input set flat/full range, and have the subwoofer turned down a little on the Bose controller).


    It simply sounds like a louder version of what I heard in the studio.

    Quote from Ingolf

    This has been discussed very often.
    Google Fletcher - Munson.
    Basically it means we as human beings dial in too much treble and bass at low volumes (that's what loudness switches are for in HiFi stereo amplifiers).


    First you should make it a habit to tweak your rigs at gig volume.
    Second dial out treble and bass and bring on more mids to compensate what you have already done neglecting the Fletcher- Munson curve.


    big +1 on that. Happend to me a few times where a rig sounded perfect in my room and live it was waaaaay to bright and too bass-y. My personal technique for preparing live-sounds is to dial in a lot of mids - almost to the point where it sounds too muddy, most of the time that rig then works perfect on stage!

    I use a lot of high gain profiles myself too. And the stuff my band plays, I don't really need the X Y slots other than EQs.


    So, I tweak the profile's Treble, Mid, Bass EQs and the presence to taste, then throw in two EQs in the XY slots. I then put EQs in the X and Y for rehearsal and live use, where I cut a lot of the bass frequencies and boost the mids, and the highs to taste. And I just switch either one on and tweak those on the spot.


    Just a thought, if you must use the X Y slots for other things, and since you have 2 Kempers, you could set one up and profile it with the other to save some effects slots :D

    why has no one mentioned that there are global EQ's attached to the outputs? I would make EQ adjustments there rather than per patch...well i guess it depends on how many patches you use live. If you only have a few patches, then yeah, make "live" versions with different EQ. You have more flexibility changing it inside the patch - you can use EQ effects which give you more control. Otherwise, just adjust your global EQ at soundcheck for the gig.

    I do not tweak profile that I use for recording and live (direct to foh).
    For my (stage) monitoring, when I use the guitar cab (different ones depends on the venue), sometimes I need to tweak the monitor-out a bit – usually tame the presence/treble a bit. (I use Powerhead).


    But what I can say, that I choose (usually do not tweak the amp sound at all, only effect side) profiles that are on "treble" side (eg Tills JVM is my main rhythm profile). They works better in the (recording and live) mix and works excellent with powerhead (monitor cab off) at rehearsal and live. Some profiles that are more bassy, can sound at home good, but in the mix are mostly muddy and undefined.

    Quote from viabcroce

    Right :D
    You can save different Output EQs for different situations... if you use to always play in the same few places it's very convenient :)


    This ^ . I have different output settings saved for differing volume levels. From there, you can always tweak further for a given room.

    Go for it now. The future is promised to no one. - Wayne Dyer

    Wow, thank you for all the great replies!


    First of all: I know about the fletcher munson curves - that's what I meant with "I can only explain that effect to myself with the human ear not being linear over different volumes. " - and that's why we did some adjustments to the profiles.
    For example, we use the LL-Shot-Gun-Blast. I fell in love with it the first time I played through that rig (at home, at low/mid volumes) and it is still one of my favourites. It sounds HUGE on recordings without any adjustments. Because usually you don't hear recordings on rehearsal volume. But in our rehearsals, it wasn't good. The two guitarists were not hearing themselves (I play the bass in that band), the overall sound was annoying, fizzy, untransparent.


    So we tweaked it like this now:
    Stack-EQ: Bass: -0.1; Mids: +,0.2; Treble: -0.8; Presence: -0.7
    Studio-EQ on the MOD-Slot (post stack): Low Gain: -9dB@80Hz; Mid1 Gain: -0.5dB@500Hz Q-Factor 0.85; Mid 2 Gain: +3.8dB@1400Hz Q-Factor 0.7
    We also rolled the gain back to 7.0, put the AMP clarity to 2.1 and definition to 7.1
    And we put a Metal Equalizer in Stomp B (pre-Stack) with Low -0.4, Mid +0.4, Gain +0.2
    A gate with threshold 2.9 is in Stomp A and the overall noise gate is at 3.4.


    To summarize it: less treble, more mids, less fizzy gain, noise gate.
    NOW our sound is - in my opinion - 1000 times better than before. You can clearly hear the guitars, the annoying highs are gone... everything is just fine.


    So I can not understand when people say that they use their studio sound live on stage without any adjustments and it sounds good.
    For recordings I tend to use profiles with way more treble and less mids than in a live situation. Am I the only one?
    And because of that I was curious about the statement from that Amon Amarth guitarist who was saying that they are happy about the Kemper because now they can take their studio sound to the stage.


    To reply to the Output-EQ-thing:
    I found the Output-EQ to be not very flexible (mid frequency is not ideal imo) and we also need only two
    different sounds live,
    so we prefer tewaking the profiles with Stack EQ
    and X/MOD/STOMP slots.
    But it is interesting to see that everybody has his own strategy on this.

    Quote

    Just a thought, if you must use the X Y slots for other things, and
    since you have 2 Kempers, you could set one up and profile it with the
    other to save some effects slots :D

    CadaverHK: That's something I thought of earlier but I was wondering if it works and if the sound quality doesn't suffer. Wouldn't the Kemper also profile the ~4ms delay produced by the unit?
    Is there someone who has tried this? Would be really interesting. Otherwise I probably will give it a try, soon. ^^


    Again, thank you all for your replies and your advice!

    Quote from skyforger91

    So I can not understand when people say that they use their studio sound live on stage without any adjustments and it sounds good.
    For recordings I tend to use profiles with way more treble and less mids than in a live situation. Am I the only one?
    And because of that I was curious about the statement from that Amon Amarth guitarist who was saying that they are happy about the Kemper because now they can take their studio sound to the stage.


    Well, a discrepancy felt between studio and live profiles certainly depends on how loud you are monitoring in the studio.
    For critical use like mixing it is certainly recommended NOT to do this at bedroom levels but at levels where the Fletcher- Munson curve gets more linear, which is above 80 dB.
    In this regard I find the Amon Amarth statement perfectly credible.
    And personally with the album my band is releasing in a few weeks I'm using exactly the same rigs for recording and live use.

    Quote from skyforger91


    For recordings I tend to use profiles with way more treble and less mids than in a live situation. Am I the only one?

    I did the same thing for a while and then I started really going hard on those mids for my recordings too - and OH MY GOD was that the right decision. When you listen to the guitars just by themselves they sound too mid-heavy and just not the way I would like them. But when I add my standard eq (high+low cut, cardboard cut) and a reverb and then add the drums and bass to it, it sounds better than ever.


    Obviously sound is subjective - but if you have the time and feel like trying it I would definitly recommend giving it a shot. Maybe you have the same kind of "luck" I had :)