Now by ear I don't hear any difference but the tool is telling that there is difference. 
This is the result (difference track): https://soundcloud.com/peto_91…232-vs-raummikro-zoom-242
Resolved: Difference in sound between 2.3.3 and 2.4.2 ?
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the zoom tracks are not cutted identical as the first two (the first two are both directly reamped and bounced identical in logic).
Zoom tracks are cutted manually.DiffMaker does have time shift compensation, so this should make no problem.
What could do more difference is Zoom recording, I think.
I didn't pay attention to signal chain... My bad.I think that with reamped samples we can get better results.
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One of the major changes in the buggy 2.4.0 (which changed sounds) was that the controls were souped up (i.e. a smaller turn of the knob would have a bigger impact on a profile). Subsequently, the firmware revision was junked, then replaced with release 2.4.2.
Are you using a stock profile without any changes? If you aren't, this could be responsible for the discrepancy. I don't hear any additional fizz or artefacts on 2.4.2 beta.
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Hi,
Check the cab parameters, are they all at <0> ? If not do it please before A/B testing. The difference in tones may come from revamped cab parameters.
Beware set the cab parameters exactly at <0>, as they are incredibly sensitive.
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As first thing I would like to mention, that I don't know which profile was used for comparison. So what I write here is based only on those 2 .wav files.I can hear the difference when I listen to those files properly. That means - take part of one file, say 1-2 seconds and right after that play the same part from second file.
2.4.2 file has definitely more treble.
All this "Sound change after FW change" issues are driving me nuts and that holds me back from going anywhere from 2.3.3
So I searched for some tool to compare sounds not only by our ears, but also DSP routines. And I found tool called Audio DiffMaker - signal difference extraction software, which can help us with this task.From Audio DiffMaker page:
Audio DiffMaker is a freeware tool set intended to help determine the absolute difference between two audio recordings, while neglecting differences due to level difference, time synchronization, or simple linear frequency responses.
The difference recording that results is only what has changed between the two recordings. If anything - a change of component, a treatment, mechanical damping, etc. - is having any audible effect on the audio signal in a system, the difference recording will have audible content. The end result is primarily intended to be evaluated by ear.
Audio DiffMaker tool webpageI used this tool to compare those two .wav files and the result was, that there is difference.
Output of this tool is difference track, which should be evaluated by human, so you can hear it here: https://soundcloud.com/peto_91…33-vs-kruno_tills_jvm_242My screnshots from DiffMaker:
http://oi62.tinypic.com/3342oar.jpg
http://oi62.tinypic.com/20artll.jpgI did not make any other comparisons, as I don't have much spare time for that
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but maybe someone with more free time will use this tool to make more testing and we will finally know if "FW Sound change" issue is real or myth.I will make thread about this software as I find it very useful for purpose of comparing sound differences between KPA firmware changes.
I am wondering, (and I was asking this some time ago but didn't get answer), if Kemper performs any kind of automated sound change comparison & analysis on new fw releases. I think this tool would be great for this.
Peto, this is good work! Thanks for finding this!
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Honestly: to talk about FW-sound-changes using a high-gain metal-profile is kind of ridiculous.... The first step should be to deactivate all effects -especially noise-gates- and then start with a clean profile.
It's also VERY important to have a "linear-as-possible" hearing-situation, which requires a studio-room, a state-of-the-art audio-interface and excellent studio-monitors. To talk about sound-changes sitting in a normal room, using probably cheap monitors, a cheap interface or even head-phones is just wasted time.
Every non-linear aspect (room/studio-monitors/interface) could color the original signal drastically. That's one of the reasons why commercial profiles from Armin and Andy often will sound much better than profiles from RE, they are done in studios with excellent equipment.
By the way: "reamping", using a Zoom H4n and a Boss Looper is nothing but a joke.....
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Honestly: I can talk only about the sounds that I use in environment where I am and equipment that I have.
Guitar Cab / Monitors (Yamaha, Genelec) / Headphones AKG 270 & AKG 450.And when the difference with "effects on" is hearable, then we have difference, that is caused somewhere in the chain – that is enough for me.
And I do not use "Input Noise Gate" (always at 0).
About a hearing situation I can only say, that means that only few people are allowed to talk about it, because the rest of us do not have optimized studio?
That is ridiculous. Purpose of my initial post was to hear experiences from other user (that have perhaps studio environment) and try to explain why I am hearing that (perhaps because of the room or cheap 200 Euro headphones and cheap 300 Euro/piece monitors).So at the moment it seams that some people hear some difference and some don't. When the audio analysis find some differences, ok.
What does it mean? That the difference is in FW? Not for sure. Perhaps is recording part a problem. Perhaps when I reamp few times with the same FW, I would get different results? Perhaps you can hear that only in a certain dynamic range (eg when I hit the strings hard, no difference). I do not know.So it would be interesting if some other people do the reamping with the same profile (and some others profiles) and post them. Important are chords and power chords, in single note lines I do not hear the difference. Especially those people that do not hear the difference. So that I can "calibrate" my ears
If not is also OK for me. I spent to much time that I could better invest in playing the guitar -
By the way: "reamping", using a Zoom H4n and a Boss Looper is nothing but a joke.....
As you could see, I posted two files reamped directly through the main out too.
Reamping with Zoom is a try to catch the differences from power amp into guitar cab.Or do you think that using microphone in studio to record the guitar amp is joke too?
The files that I posted are discussion start point and not final evidences.
I would appreciate if you can do the reamping and post the files with your method.
Only to criticize my method and presume some things (as "cheap interface") is not enough.
At the end perhaps we find some result as: "There is no difference in FW if you use 1000 Euro monitors in treated studio through 2000 Euro interface".
At least it would be a result. -
Perhaps is recording part a problem. Perhaps when I reamp few times with the same FW, I would get different results? Perhaps you can hear that only in a certain dynamic range (eg when I hit the strings hard, no difference). I do not know
You just named a few of the existing problems, at the end I will trust my ears. I did the same upgrade (2.3.3 --> 2.4.2), using more than 500 rigs and I don't hear any differences.
My result is definetively: in my studio (Klein & Hummel O110-monitors, UAD Apollo Twin & RME Fireface 400-interface, SPL control 2381, Spectraflex and Vovox-cables) I can't hear any differences in all my rigs (mainly Armin, Andy and my own ones).
For sure equipment plays a bigger role than you may think, just one example: using a tool like the Boss-RC 2 will totally change your sound.
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no prob, that is the reason that I did not use Boss Looper, only logic DI tracks.
And I found the reason for phasing issue that I experienced live
I will open a new thread. -
Suggestion (if you know a bit about phase and polarity). This might not give any usable result, but might be worth a try anyway.
Use SPDIF ins and outs (and set it up correctly - [email protected]), choose a profile you have noticed a "big" difference on.
- Set your kemper to constant latency, record a DI track
- Reamp the DI track three times (three seperate tracks) for the new firmware
- Compare results in pairs, flipping the polarity (=reversing the phase) of one of the pairs each time, to get an idea of inherent variability in the system (i.e., the complete chain). This is your control. The lower the signal becomes when flipping the polarity, the closer the match.- Revert to the old firmware, and repeat the process.
- Now, compare old vs. new, using the same process of flipping the polarity of one track in a pair. Listen for the level drop.
- Compare :
a sum of an "old" track with polarity flipped and "new" track normal
with
a sum of an "old" track with polarity flipped and "old" track normal (and the same for new tracks)Is the sound about the same? What about level drop?
(when I say "old" track, I of course mean reamped with the old firmware).
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Thanks, but it is enough reamping about the issue for me! I found the issue and it is Kemper but not FW.
The tracks that I posted I recorded with Eventide H9 in fx loop (OFF) and it seems that FX Loop bleeds even if the FX Loop Block is not in the rig! Better to say, as I recorded 2.3.3, Eventide was on the top of my Kemper but without cables connected, then as I plugged the USB Stick with 2.4.2 I (probably) saw the unconnected cables and connected it
So I can explain very slight difference (one without Eventide in the loop, one with it – so I am not mad and hear good Yesterday I recorded/reamped further tracks with both FWs but without Eventide in the Loop (I left it in the rehearsal room) and could not hear any difference.
Today I connected the Eventide again and hat strong ambience preset ON (without Loop Block) and I heared it bleed through. Few weeks/days ago I had probably my main Eventide (weak) Delay preset ON, so I heard the difference in the sound but could not recognize it as Eventide Effect. -
Aha! Interesting
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Great!
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I found the issue and it is Kemper but not FW.
That's what I wanted to say, I didn't want to attack you, but just a tiny thing can change a sound. And very often it will be something you didn't even think about like in your case the fx-loop. Cables can change guitar-sounds, too.
I'm using here 1 Vovox Sonorus Protect-cable (3m) directly into the KPA, Main outs stereo into the Apollo Twin, using 2 short Spectraflex-cables, nothing else and there's no difference between 2.3.3 and 2.4.2 for my ears. If I put my TC Ditto-looper ino the fx-loop (off), I can't hear any difference either.
Anyway, it's great that the problem is solved.
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Thanks, but it is enough reamping about the issue for me! I found the issue and it is Kemper but not FW.
The tracks that I posted I recorded with Eventide H9 in fx loop (OFF) and it seems that FX Loop bleeds even if the FX Loop Block is not in the rig! Better to say, as I recorded 2.3.3, Eventide was on the top of my Kemper but without cables connected, then as I plugged the USB Stick with 2.4.2 I (probably) saw the unconnected cables and connected it
So I can explain very slight difference (one without Eventide in the loop, one with it – so I am not mad and hear good Yesterday I recorded/reamped further tracks with both FWs but without Eventide in the Loop (I left it in the rehearsal room) and could not hear any difference.
Today I connected the Eventide again and hat strong ambience preset ON (without Loop Block) and I heared it bleed through. Few weeks/days ago I had probably my main Eventide (weak) Delay preset ON, so I heard the difference in the sound but could not recognize it as Eventide Effect.very interesting, thanks for being so thorough.
I'll try to replicate this.
