Yeah, but OTOH everyone would know who they are... this would make some difference I guess.
I've been contacted several times by people who were trying to probe the possibility of a share/agreement/exchange.
Don't know what others have experienced, but "shareware people" are more common than one would probably expect 
Interesting discussion, but I am afraid that even if KPA did have any kind of commercial profiles protection, there would be very simple way to make clones of those profiles. KPA was designed and invented for this. Imagine you have two KPAs and you will profile the commercial profile you have bought. We all agree that the resulting profile will be clone of commercial profile. Not 100% the same, but it will not be copy of the commercial one. What then? Will there be request for watermark in KPAs output for all commercial profiles, so it can not be profiled? I don't think that this is the way to go.
In digital realm there is no real protection against piracy. Every information human wants to perceive has to be decrypted before use. If it is decrypted it can be copied. What I would like to see more is try-before-buy system for commercial profiles. I have bought few , but I am not using any of them, because I found free profiles which I like more. I would like to try commercial profile with my guitars and fingers to hear how it works for me and how it feels under my fingers. Then I can decide if I want to buy or not.
Display MoreThis is not what Feck said; if that was the case, there would have been no need for premising that the profiles world was born to be free:
I'd like to understand the relationship between the Profiling community being born to be free and the freedom to illegally share profiles.
Feck uses the first part of his statement in order to backup the second part. His "a capitalistic approach is not fair" should then justify the statement that theft is unavoidable. If he just wanted to say that in the digital realm illegal copies are somehow normal (which I take for granted), there would be no need for the first part.
Since theft is unavoidable in every instance of the digital realm (so that it should be obvious and not worth mentioning), he's saying that thieves behave well when they steal profiles (unlike with stealing mp3s), because selling profiles is unethical at the root.
I missing how one can justify stealing a profile but not a song. Feck seems to justify this by stating that profiles have to be free, which is the same thing (some) people used to say in Italy in the '70s when bursting venues because "popular music has to be free".
PS: Feck, nothing personal dude, this is just for discussion's sake.
Also, I edited a typo in my original post, where I misspelled "your people" with "you people", giving my sentence an unwanted aggressive tone. I was referring to those who steal guidebooks
@ chamelious: strange that you miss the critical point here: if you clone someone else's car you're not damaging the owner, but those who sell it.
Maybe you'd have never be able to afford a Ferrari, so you're not actually eating up market shares. But if you start selling your clones, many people who would have bought them will be more than happy to spend a fraction of the cost and buy your clone.
Since this is a free community, anybody is entitled to sell things as long as the market is fair. And anybody is free to decide whether to give them money for something extra, or not.
Commercial profiles IMO don't touch the freedom of the community nor its original spirit, which is apparently living well (RE is constantly growing).
Peace
No, I'm not saying profiles have to be free. I'm saying that in many cases, they are. And in some cases where people wish they WEREN'T, they still are going to be. I remember reading a CK post at one point where he said something about people charging or whether he was going to charge for profiles, and he said something to the effect of that the KPA was made to be a model that was based on community, not charging for everything that came out. So, at least to some degree, that was the INTENDED use of the KPA - as is pretty evident by the official, FREE Rig Exchange. There is just no feasible way I can see instilling absolute financial value on something that is, by large majority (as there are way more free rigs than commercial rigs for sale) free. If there were any real finger to point as to a potential root cause of the idea of theft or sharing rigs (other than the intrinsic human tendencies to attempt to get one over on people), it would be at the Rig Exchange, which by virtue of being free, lowers the overall perceived value of rigs themselves. However, the Rig Exchange is AWESOME, and basically embodies the entire concept of the KPA from day one. When I realized I could share my profiles with artists, fellow producers, and the community at large, it was a significant reason I invested into the platform. Conversely, if the original model was to have a bunch of random third party people make a bunch of money selling their wares on the KPA platform as a store of sorts, I would have been a whole lot less impressed with the concept, and less motivated to be part of it. I sure am glad it happened the way it did!
the KPA was made to be a model that was based on community, not charging for everything that came out. So, at least to some degree, that was the INTENDED use of the KPA - as is pretty evident by the official, FREE Rig Exchange.
This is the reason many bought in.
Now, because others have profiled and sold, several are coming out with one or two amps and charging. Let's discuss that.....maybe not as it would be never ending as well.... let's just thank the guys that are making multiple profiles FREE and being part of a community that benefits everyone.
This is the reason many bought in.
Now, because others have profiled and sold, several are coming out with one or two amps and charging. Let's discuss that.....maybe not as it would be never ending as well.... let's just thank the guys that are making multiple profiles FREE and being part of a community that benefits everyone.
Great post of you both. I agree 120%! 
I believe that the "free profilers" and the "commercial profilers" can live side by side in perfect harmony. We have no hint that the latter may have made any damage to the community. If anything, they have rather pushed the bar up improving the level of free profiles as well, and have given a strong contribution to the Profiler's popularity, attracting other people who can now contribute themselves.
Here we go again.
It's easy to say, but you can't make copies of cars and washing machines or refrigerators for that matter. You can only copy things which involve intellectual property, surprise surprise. Does that mean intellectual property has no value? I strongly disagree that just because something can be digitised, that doesn't mean you can and should own it. It's only the creative arts that are suffering, not stuff like white goods manufacturing. If the mindset continues, it will be impossible to earn a living from creative things and we will all have to work in manufacturing. Meanwhile, companies with the means to wage IP war are throttling growth of products that are better and faster, simply because they have the means to do so. So there's no point in crying foul about how music is dying with all the Bievers and Jepsens around. You made it happen.
You mentioned the prosecution that happened with Game of Thrones piracy. So a parallel with shoplifting can be drawn, I would think. It's just that there aren't many laws right now and there are huge pressure groups that want this sort of thing to go on, but I honestly support the idea of stronger net policing to stop things like illegal file sharing and child pornography. The terms of use when you buy a CD are printed on the back: you own a copy, you do not own the right to do whatever you like with someone else's work. .
My point here was that this mindset is already here. And that trying to fight against it is a ridiculous losing battle. I think its daft that people are "crying foul" about the biebers and whatnot, there have ALWAYS been pop superstars raking it in.
Just my 2 cents as one of these commercial profilin' guys...
The Free Community is great and has lots of amazing profiles. The Commercial Community is great and has lots of amazing profiles. They both serve a purpose.
Way I see it - if piracy gets too bad, where nobody can sell enough profiles to make it worthwhile, then the commercial profilers will likely either post a lot fewer or stop entirely. I shared 40+ profiles on the Rig Exchange back in 2012 including pretty rare gear and even now still have free profiles downloadable. I have had over 13,000 downloads (not individual profile downloads, but of sets) that I can track the numbers from the site they are stored on. (which is another reason why I personally don't like Rig Exchange - I can't keep track of how many downloads and some people seem to think if they download from there it's ok to warp them and repost.) The number of paid profiles I have sold are much much much (keep saying much for awhile) fewer. Not complaining, just giving a little perspective here. While I do sell profiles I think I also provide some good free stuff too and I have since posting my first profile on the rig exchange on 17 February 2012. I have also become much better at it since then!
It's an option - if you want to buy a commercial profile, they are there, and there are free ones there too. But if you don't pay for a commercial profile, don't use it. Simple. Use the free ones.
And ANY type of piracy protection or built in Kemper profiling store or whatever is a bad idea in my opinion. Personally, I'd rather see any efforts that could be made on piracy protection used to make the Kemper even better than it is now. If the users and community want to get rid of the piracy, it can be done without Kemper having to get involved.
Pete
I agree with Pete on all accounts here, great post!
It's pretty presumptuous to say everyone who does profiles should be giving them away for free just because there's a rig exchange.
Especially because most vendors have free profiles available as well.
Doing profiling doesn't cost me only time, but also money.
And that doesn't even take into account the time I had to spend to learn how to properly mic up a cab etc...
I know it sounds arrogant, and there are exceptions of the rule, but it takes time to hear if a mic position is good or not, and most guys who never did that before will turn up with
profiles that don't meet my standards by a long shot.
Not trying to discourage anyone, but for me most of the stuff on RE isn't useable, apart from maybe coping an amp here and there.
The stuff that is good really rocks though.
But I'm also not fan of every single commercial offering, so maybe it's just me.
I also think that it's not the job of Kemper to care about copy protection in any way.
We as seller just have to live and learn to work with the fact that not everyone will be a decent human being.
Most of the profilers are musicians too, so I guess we just got used to that already.
My hope is just that, since the Kemper as a product is aimed towards "adult/semi-pro/pro musicians" (its not for the kid just checking out if he wants to play guitar or not) that in that group the amount of people willing to steal is lower compared to the general audience of the entertainment media. Since they walk in the same shoes and all.
+1 to what Pete (okstrat) said.
I have thought about this topic many times. Kinda off topic but in the same vain...What is keeping major amp companies from suing the shit out of Kemper for what this device is made for?
Isnt the act of profiling infringing on some sort of copyright?
I'm an IP lawyer, but this isn't legal advice, consult an attorney about any specific situation you face. In the US, the answer to your question is probably no. You can trademark actual notes or recorded sounds, but no one's been able to successfully trademark a sound quality/timbre.
My point here was that this mindset is already here. And that trying to fight against it is a ridiculous losing battle. I think its daft that people are "crying foul" about the biebers and whatnot, there have ALWAYS been pop superstars raking it in.
True, there have always been popstars raking it in.
There is a podcast episode on the "mix notes from hell" podcast by some pretty bigshot insiders in the reocrding business (engineers, producers) talking about the way piracy changed the music business. They talk about how piracy caused the record labels to consolidate and cut away middle tier artists from their catalogue to focus solely on the big wins. Those middle tier artists (or the "risk of not breaking even" on them) used to be partly "funded" by the big hit pop stars; not anymore. According to them at least. Interesting stuff, I think, whether you agree or not. For those interested: http://produceher.podomatic.co…2014-09-07T13_21_45-07_00
Not all that related to this discussion, so just sharing to those interested
Thanks Michael
I think a lot has been discussed before when Andy was thinking about setting up TAF website. There are many many variables involved. Its down to trust really and the hope that there are more people willing to pay than not pay out there.
The commercial profiles I've purchased since beginning to use the KPA are generally the best guitar sounds I have access to, and I'm glad I spent the money. That being said, I think any sort of piracy protection of the sort suggested would be a bad move on a number of levels, and a pain for all concerned, including those who create and sell commercial profiles. I hope people will continue to create quality commercial profiles and that those who can afford to do so will continue to purchase them.
The commercial profiles I've purchased since beginning to use the KPA are generally the best guitar sounds I have access to, and I'm glad I spent the money. That being said, I think any sort of piracy protection of the sort suggested would be a bad move on a number of levels, and a pain for all concerned, including those who create and sell commercial profiles. I hope people will continue to create quality commercial profiles and that those who can afford to do so will continue to purchase them.
+1
I think its daft that people are "crying foul" about the biebers and whatnot, there have ALWAYS been pop superstars raking it in.
That's because Bieber actually sucks. 
Or at least, he's not on the level of some of the acts that I listen to. It enrages me when I hear about how little some of the bands I grew up listening to make and then I see someone with no-talent stage-managed to millions of dollars.
It's not as if people that listen to Bieber don't know about downloading. Or Carly Rae Jepsen. Or Jay-Z or Beyonce. So why so many copies sold, which is the sole basis on which an artist is considered a hit or a failure, rather than the amount of illegal file shares? It's the dichotomy in the entire argument that piracy is hurting the music business. And if you read into stuff about weird cults controlling the planet, etc, you'll find that it's interesting how the concept of money to create money can be twisted into something perverse, anarchial and dangerous to the hopes and dreams of the "real" human race.
Gotta say that while the commercial profiles are nice, the free ones are also great. I was opposed to there being commercial profiles in the first place as it wasn't in keeping with the spirit of the thing, but you can't stop people from leveraging a market if they want to and if others are willing to pay.
This is one of my main reasons for not buying commercial profiles. I like the idea of a community where things are shared legally, because they were created with the idea of sharing behind them. It's like something like Reaper, a completely free software that is quite capable, but accessible to everyone for the exact same results.
I remember profiles by Andy Sneap being demonstrated on the forums. While it undoubtedly made me feel "less special" for about 10 minutes, I realised that the beauty about the free profiles offered by Kemper Amplifiers and a tonne of users was that they were in no way not up to the challenge of fitting into a professional sounding record. Bye-bye envy, hello love of what I have.
Personally I don't think commercial profiles are inherently any better than free ones. I simply think they have better presentation, curation and quality control. In the free rig exchange there's a higher percentage of poorer profiles than in a purchased pack of profiles, but the good profiles are no better in either case and there are plenty of those, it just takes slightly more effort to audition and there aren't any demos for you to hear how they sound first.
Agree 100%. Stuff like rmpacheco's Morgan AC20 on the rig exchange, the free stuff put out by users like paults, djemass, sinmix and others who I'm forgetting absolutely convinces me that there is a lot more quality stuff available on the rig exchange that could go toe-to-toe with some of the commercial profiles out there. I mean, just look at the new bass pack put out by Kemper Amplifiers, it's fabulous. I really dig it.
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This is one of my main reasons for not buying commercial profiles. I like the idea of a community where things are shared legally, because they were created with the idea of sharing behind them. It's like something like Reaper, a completely free software that is quite capable, but accessible to everyone for the exact same results.
Uhhh... Reaper isn't free, dude...
I history commercialisation of intellectual property is a recent invention. Prior to the invention of recording and distribution media living musicians would have to perform to make an income. Not too much earlier there wasn't even an opportunity to make a buck from sheet music. With digital distribution one may just as well see it as a return to basics through sharing, as theft. Societies are still struggling to make up their opinion on which definition to support. The recording industry has a lot of influence through their wealth, but it is far from clear that the industry's bare existence is to the best of society.
The idea behind the KPA was to create a community, not a commercial platform. I think this is best for the long term.
Btw, I fully respect the integrity of commercial products whether it is KPA-profiles or other music produces, but I prefer the community approach that pre-dates the commercial music industry when given a choice.
Uhhh... Reaper isn't free, dude...
It's fully functional even if you don't pay for it. They don't cripple the software if you use it beyond 60 days, but just give you reminders to buy a license, which is a very interesting business model. What's more, the licence is quite cheap compared to most DAWs.
