Looper is working through MIDI, KPA Team made it available in 3.0.2 Public Beta:)(UPDATED 26.03.2015)

    Quote from benvigil


    Few quick questions about the NRPNs you are sending:

    • For Play, why are you sending the 0x00 (release) first and the 0x01 (press) second? shouldn't it be the other way around?
    • What is the functional difference between issuing the play sequence (0x5D) vs Trigger (0x5A)? Don't they do the same thing?
    • For Undo, the script is the sending the same value (0x5D 0x01) as for play. Is that correct?
    • Everything from 0x58 thru 0x5E used except for a gap at 0x59... any ideas what that might do, if anything?

    Thanks!


    1. We had hard time finding out how to do play command. We did not find one command to do this, but it works like it is written in the JS statemachine. I am sure there is SM in the Looper/KPA for this.
    2.As I got it, Trigger is for reseting loop to its start. Maybe it is possible to stop looper "in the middle" of the loop and resume playing from that. (we did not find commands for this) So if you need to reset loop to its start, you can do this in stop mode. Consequent play command will play it from its beginning. If you press trigger during play - playing will be reset to the start of the loop.
    3.I would say the opposite, that for play (we didn't find the one button command option) it works with issuing undo redo command. :)
    4. We did not find any reaction from KPA to these. But you are free to try... :) Just be careful with 0x5F as it disables looper and you have to reboot KPA.


    Generally it was not our intent to make any kind of unofficial looper hack. It would not have any sense to do something like this WITHOUT official support and WILL from Kemper. Even if we would make something for others' use, they could render it unusable with simple fw change. They actually did it :/ with latest release. If they don't want to include some feature in their fw, it's absolutely their legitimate decision. :) But as we all know, Kemper loves their users, I think it is worth a try and ask.


    Our intent was to show that the looping behavior issue from 2.6 firmware was actually looper. And as we found that looper works quite well with MIDI controller, we kindly asked Kemper team if they could make it available (in basic option) also for people who don't need remote ATM but would like to have the looper.

    It IS your device and you can do what you wish with it.
    Kind of like when Apple tried to get the courts to make it illegal for people to jailbreak their phones. They lost. Rightfully so.


    If Kemper decides to brick what you guys open up......well, that would be quite telling.
    Sometimes companies will brick things like this with updates and claim that it is unsupported in the first place.


    But once again, why does it have to be unsupported?

    Quote from Joptunes

    Can you please post the normal NRPN information that was originally posted for all of these features?
    I'm programming directly into my foot controller with NRPN information and not using the converter.


    Great work !!


    :)
    It turned out, that the only way I was able to achieve the Remote-like operation (as described in manual 3.0) was to use state machine in software and issue different NRPN commands. Sometimes they didn't make sense as we expected. But it works in that script. I can for sure post here commands which work for reverse and 1/2 speed.
    REVERSE: 0xB0,0x63,0x7D,0xB0,0x62,0x5B,0xB0,0x06,0x00,0xB0,0x26,0x01
    1/2 SPEED: 0xB0,0x63,0x7D,0xB0,0x62,0x5C,0xB0,0x06,0x00,0xB0,0x26,0x01
    Is it OK? :)


    I am sure Damian will add them to the OP.



    Quote from Joptunes


    I would be ok if Kemper were to offer a download license we paid for to turn on the looper for non remote users. Not sure how technically difficult that would be, but I for one would pay a small fee to get the feature turned on and not dig into the revenue stream expected for the remote.


    For a moment I thought the same, but then I realized, that it is the opposite of their philosophy of free fw upgrades. TBH I still hope the basic MIDI looper will make it to the next fw. :) Not that I would not live without 30s looper, but it's something which is ever ready when you play, so why don't use it? I started to read manual about looper (manual 3.0) and I found few sentences which I found interesting. i will comment it in separate post.


    Quote from Jimmyno

    Absolutely agreed and pretty fair.
    But i think that people who have bought the remote won't be that happy.


    Many think that looper is any kind of selling point for Remote. Better to say - it's kind of bonus, maybe 5-10% of overall expectation from what Remote does. I am sure that 99% of them would buy it without Looper. So would I.

    Quote from Jimmyno

    I don't wat to be rude, but here in Italy we say that lies have short legs (indeed they don't go very far).
    So, once it is clear that the Remote is not NECESSARY in order to control the looper, in the next days i will try with my ipad, midi designer and my midi interface to control the looper.


    There is no reason for bad feelings here and/or accuse Kemper from lies, because they did not lie about Looper. :)
    They only chose, to make Looper with Advanced functions and for those functions they needed own controller. With Remote you can do extra tasks with "press&hold" buttons. I am sure, not all of generic MIDI controllers can do this. They decided to give Remote users the best possible experience from looper. We could discuss here, if 30s are enough for best possible experience, but that is not what I am talking here. i talk about control of the looper. But many of us don't need best possible experience with 6 buttons, leds and display. :) That's the message we are trying to carry.

    Quote from Inthrutheout

    I think they needed the "bonus" to help hit their price point on the Remote. $600 for just remote operations?
    To them it was practically free since it was essentially already there.


    I would pay those 499€ for that nice integration and 100% longterm compatibility. :) But that' only me and my opinion.
    And I have to disagree, that it was free and was already there. Some engineers had to do development / testing and that costs.

    I suspect they are simply doing MIDI over ethernet with the new Remote. If so, it's only a matter of time before somebody wiresharks the ethernet connection and figures that out too. Unless Kemper takes active measures to encrypt/obfuscate communications with the Remote, it shouldn't be all that hard.

    Quote from Peto


    There is no reason for bad feelings here and/or accuse Kemper from lies, because they did not lie about Looper. :)
    They only chose, to make Looper with Advanced functions and for those functions they needed own controller. With Remote you can do extra tasks with "press&hold" buttons. I am sure, not all of generic MIDI controllers can do this. They decided to give Remote users the best possible experience from looper. We could discuss here, if 30s are enough for best possible experience, but that is not what I am talking here. i talk about control of the looper. But many of us don't need best possible experience with 6 buttons, leds and display. :) That's the message we are trying to carry.


    I agree, so the assignment of 2 or 3 midi cc for basic looper functions would be smart.

    Quote from Peto


    There is no reason for bad feelings here and/or accuse Kemper from lies, because they did not lie about Looper. :)
    They only chose, to make Looper with Advanced functions and for those functions they needed own controller. With Remote you can do extra tasks with "press&hold" buttons. I am sure, not all of generic MIDI controllers can do this. They decided to give Remote users the best possible experience from looper. We could discuss here, if 30s are enough for best possible experience, but that is not what I am talking here. i talk about control of the looper. But many of us don't need best possible experience with 6 buttons, leds and display. :) That's the message we are trying to carry.


    Unfortunately translation doesn't help that much.
    I have to admit that my feelings towards the KR aren't very positive. I feel that it is a big mistake from several point of views, because of its own limitations (no midi ount for a € 500,00 fc, no midi CC carried from the expression pedals) and because of the ones to the KPA that we are facing now, i.e. the looper which is there but it is now blocked.
    I don't feel comforable knowing that the KPA is able to do some things and these capabilities are limitated (that's why i cannot live with an iOs device without jailbreaking it LOL)
    Of course it's a matter of industrial policies and only at Kemper there are some people entiteled to discuss them.


    My personal opinion is that just a very low percentage of people who have bought the remote have done it because of the looper functionality. Integration is way more valuable, as flexibility.
    So an open and basic looper for everybody would have been welcome and wouldn't have touched the sales of the KR, IMHO.
    But, since in this moment the KR have been advertosed as necessary to control the looper, i don't think that there will be any looper for non-Remote owners.

    Works good for reverse and 1/2 time, thanks.


    What I can't get it to do is stop recording, then let me start the loop again. Does the KPA allow for that and will keep it in memory somewhere?


    i can re-trigger a loop when it's running, but as soon as I hit stop it erases the loop.
    I have changed the value on the command I'm using from 1 to 0 and it didn't change anything.


    anyone have this working?
    thanks,

    Quote from Inthrutheout

    I think they needed the "bonus" to help hit their price point on the Remote. $600 for just remote operations?
    To them it was practically free since it was essentially already there.


    To me the $600 price tag is actually quite sensible in my book, looper or no. looks to be high quality, durable, extremely well thought out (development costs!) and for a relatively small market (the price of a tailor made solution).


    I am still waiting to see if anybody can come up with any statement from anybody from the company that says that midi control of the looper is not possible. Anyone? anyone?

    @Michael_dk - The text below is from this link: http://www.kemper-amps.com/for…rice-announced/?pageNo=7&



    Laimon: i'm not burkhard but i might be able to sheet some additional light on that: the looper is highly interactive and Remote is required for the feedback you need to operate it. buttons with multiple meanings and states (depending on the actual situation) require the multi LEDs and the display of Remote. without all the visual aid, you don't even know if you're in record or playback. we want to focus on making our looper great fun and that's why it turned out that Remote is requirement. other boards are not supported.best, gs

    Quote from Joptunes

    What I can't get it to do is stop recording, then let me start the loop again. Does the KPA allow for that and will keep it in memory somewhere?


    This is the problematic PLAY command which I had hard time to figure out. In the script I got it working with following sequence:
    Jazz.MidiOutLong([0xB0,0x63,0x7D,0xB0,0x62,0x5D,0xB0,0x06,0x00,0xB0,0x26,0x00]);
    Jazz.MidiOutLong([0xB0,0x63,0x7D,0xB0,0x62,0x5D,0xB0,0x06,0x00,0xB0,0x26,0x01]);
    Which is UNDO command set to 0 followed by UNDO command set to 1.
    Hope this helps. You can look into that converter script to see how it worked for me. I don't say those are the right commands, but it works. :)
    You can also try to issue commands from the converter script to test if it works.


    Quote from Joptunes

    i can re-trigger a loop when it's running, but as soon as I hit stop it erases the loop.
    I have changed the value on the command I'm using from 1 to 0 and it didn't change anything.


    I didn't test this one, because I was not trying to make complete 100% working looper control replacement, so some functions may not work as expected. :(

    I also would not be against paying a fee of some kind to gain access to CC's or NRPN's. I originally started out using a G-system to control the Kemper and the inability to pass expression pedal data to either the Kemper or other devices lead me to my current controller, switching to the KPR would leave me in the same boat for controlling other things like my Voicelive 2 and only being able to only control 2 other devices is a limit that does not sell me on having to spend more and being left to try and sell my current controller at a loss.


    I do not have a sense of entitlement here, it just kind of baffles me because the remote is just passing button presses back to the Kemper where the software resides, it is not like the looper software is self contained in the KPR?


    Can you imagine if the pitch shifters features had been added only for folks willing to buy a Kemper expression pedal? Would the folks with other existing expression pedals not have felt like me now? That is sort of where my thinking is at.


    I would never buy a car that only ran on that companies gas or a guitar that only worked with that companies guitar strings, I look for versatility and think a bit further down the road to what I may need. That's why I ended up with a Kemper in the first place, it would be a crying shame if it becomes a game of limits in place of a push to make this the most versatile option out there.