Looper is working through MIDI, KPA Team made it available in 3.0.2 Public Beta:)(UPDATED 26.03.2015)

    "The goodwill that Kemper will generate from granting access to this "unfinished" looper would also be unlimited"


    Companies don't run on goodwill! They run on people buying their products.


    Anymore free riders want to chime in?


    Geezer

    Quote from Ezergeezer

    Big slap in the face for the dedicated users who have already pre purchased the Remote if you ask me!


    I guess they didn't buy it for just getting looper functionality. And if they did so, they could still send their remotes back, as they just got them. I highly doubt, many people would do this.



    Some of us actually like to have a relationship with the company after a purchase. And companies like Kemper recognise that. We support what they're doing and get the word out to other people about good products. None of us charge a cent for that. It's called goodwill and it really works.


    In no way are we asking for anything we're not entitled to. In my post, I've explicitly stated that if we get looper functionality restored (restored and not given to us, since it was there in earlier firmwares), it would be a great thing. I've had experience with a lot of companies and Kemper is different in terms of how they listen to customer feedback. Sure, I don't want a free lunch. Just tell us what we need to do to get this feature restored.


    Restored and not given to us for free. It was already included and now it's not. None of us are crying. But you're belittling the work done by Damian and Peto by suggesting that they (or I) are thieving twats. They haven't tinkered with the Kemper at all, just bombarded it with a flood of NRPN messages and figured out that the looper feature was there all along. Some users have even been able to get their floorboards working with the looper.


    I don't see what your point is really when you say that people can't do what they want with a product they buy. It's really petty thinking and doesn't make any sense at all. Have you seen a mod come over here and say, "You guys can't do this"? What are you implying, that people who didn't buy the Remote don't deserve to use the Kemper because we have our own floorboards?


    You totally miss the tenor of this thread: a bunch of users who found something cool, shared it with the community and have merely suggested to the company that it would be cool if this "easter egg" could be included in future firmware revisions. No one wants to cheat anybody who paid their hard-earned money for a Remote. Nobody wants to hurt Kemper's profits.


    Basically, that animosity is just uncalled for. Don't know where you come from, but try to keep that anger in check. I repeat, "We have done nothing wrong".

    Quote from Ezergeezer

    Companies don't run on goodwill! They run on people buying their products.


    Anymore free riders want to chime in?


    Ezergeezer, I really do get what you're trying to say. You could however, say it without calling people names every time you post.


    Almost every person in this thread has said that in the end, they are okay with Kemper running the company as they see fit. Indeed, one of the reasons we're here is the way Kemper has had a history of running the company: namely, with continuous updates and features improvements. Just look at this section of the Profiler Page:


    About the Remote:

    Quote

    Traditional MIDI based foot controllers are also supported and pretty much every parameter can be controlled.


    Should this section now be updated to exclude any features related to the looper?


    About Free Updates (Kemper added the bold font, not me):

    Quote

    Free feature additions by software updates for the Profiler is a tradition at Kemper. We pride ourselves to use what’s common in the computer world for a musical instrument as well, to your advantage. This way, your purchase becomes even more valuable over time.


    Who's asking for a "free ride" now?


    So while the looper features were never "officially documented", there were obviously implemented and released into their production product line. Those features exist.


    At this point, it seems to run 180 degrees counter to Kempers self-professed ethos of "free feature additions by software updates" to actively remove them from the Profiler with no other upside than protecting the sales of another product.

    I know, why don't we rip all the software out of the Kemper too, so we can run it from our DAWS as a plug in for free!


    "would be cool if this "easter egg" could be included in future firmware revisions". NOT Easter Egg, was designed to be used with the Remote!


    Urban Dictionary, pfff! Thats the internet generation for you! Grow up! Life's not a free ride.

    Quote from Ezergeezer


    Companies don't run on goodwill! They run on people buying their products.


    Yeah, and they are advertising free feature updates and compatibilaty with usual midi controllers. So it's no surprise people ask for feature updates (which are coming quite regularly) and also for looper access via midi, as it seems to be possible from a technical point of view.
    Are you pissed because you bought the remote for looper access of why are you argueing against people who want to use it via midi?
    Also, there might be people out there who prefer (or need) other foot controllers in order to control other parts of their equipment, so the remote isn't the best solution for every kemper user.

    Quote from Ezergeezer

    I know, why don't we rip all the software out of the Kemper too, so we can run it from our DAWS as a plug in for free!


    "would be cool if this "easter egg" could be included in future firmware revisions". NOT Easter Egg, was designed to be used with the Remote!


    Urban Dictionary, pfff! Thats the internet generation for you! Grow up! Life's not a free ride.



    I hate to break the news to you but just about every manufacturer reverse engineers competitors products. Whether it be electronics, software, vehicles, you name it.
    You can be quite sure Kemper has tore into the workings of all the Fractal equipment just as Cliff has tore into the Kemper.


    This is just a part of the industry. It is common and necessary to stay competitive.


    Also community "hacking" and reverse engineering has created a LOT of the things you enjoy today.


    But you say users are the ones who should be blocked from this?


    Hell, we are the ones putting our money out for these things.

    Thanks for the tremendous interest in the Looper :)


    There are mainly complexity reasons that made us not to support Looper controllers by midi yet.
    Beside the missing feedback from the Looper (LEDs, Display) the complexity exists due to the fact that the Looper requires key-on as well as key-off actions, to support the various functions being triggered when a key is held rather than pressed shortly. Many midi pedals do not support easy key off controllers and many users have a hard time to dig into this topic creating a significant support overhead.


    We had this issue with the tap button controller that will trigger the Beat Scanner when held. Without the key-off event, the Beat Scanner was triggered by a single strike of the button. We went through a dozen of forum threads handling this single issue.


    Without a key-off event, the Looper would always enter the Overdub when terminating the loop end. When you press Stop, the loop will be erased. And so on.


    To make the Looper "midi-save" we would have to create an alternative way to control it and optionally a detection, wether key-off events are sent or not. This is not a tweak but a project, that has not been scheduled yet.

    First, thank you for your response!


    Nearly all MIDI-based controllers I know of support events for both press (key-on) and release (key-off) -- for example, to support the way the first button on the Remote works... press and hold to record, release to start looping.


    How is this different from MIDI controllers handling press/release events to enable scrolling through Rigs?


    These actions are indeed supported already.

    Quote from ckemper

    Many midi pedals do not support easy key off controllers and many users have a hard time to dig into this topic creating a significant support overhead.


    Moreover, how is this different from using SysEx for sending/receiving parameter information? The behavior of the Profiler with regard to parameter retrieval using SysEx responses is far more complicated than simply documenting the NRPN needed to control the looper. Yet, you have documented those and various 3rd party controllers have sprung up to support the Kemper as a viable performance tool.


    I suppose the difference is that in the pre-Remote days, Kemper actually needed 3rd party controller support...

    The KPA remains the best (& most expensive) music gear purchase I've ever made. Though it was released in many ways unfinished (front panel buttons that didn't do anything for a long time), Kemper has gone way beyond filling in the missing stuff and has continued to provide completely new features. They have been more responsive to user feature requests than any gear maker I've ever seen. Though it sometimes seem to take a long time for features to be released, everything is always extremely well thought-through from the user's point of view. Features have been added that are so innovative that no one could have thought to ask for them. Their attention to design and commitment to a pleasant and low-friction user experience is Apple-esque.


    @ckemper's explanation makes complete sense in that context. I expect the looper to be available via MIDI command at some point in the future. It may not be done soon, but it will be done well.

    Quote from ckemper

    Without a key-off event, the Looper would always enter the Overdub when terminating the loop end. When you press Stop, the loop will be erased. And so on.


    To make the Looper "midi-save" we would have to create an alternative way to control it and optionally a detection, wether key-off events are sent or not. This is not a tweak but a project, that has not been scheduled yet.


    Christoph I appreciate your time to comment on this and I have more questions...
    What about simple Looper behavior which does not require keyoff messages? It works right now with 2.7.4.
    Could it be done with a simple state machine for MIDI as I did it in Javascript? ;)
    And if answer is "NO" or "NOT-YET", is it possible to re-enable those NRPNs. :whistling:
    Thank you.