I don't have the Kemper, but I'm hesitating about purchase it.
And if the Kemper 2 would release the next month ?
It could be another couple of years (or longer) before another version is released. God only knows how long you could be waiting. I own an Axe FX II and purchased the KPA approx. 5 months ago, and I haven't had a single regret.
Comparing Helix to Kemper is not a fair comparison, as the KPA was built to do something that the Helix isn't capable of. Or any other modeller, for that matter. Yes, the UI and form of the Helix might appeal to those that are looking for that sort of thing, but a UI like that or a floor format isn't going to improve the one thing that the Profiler was built for (the clue is in the name). Buy the Helix, Axe FX, whatever and get GREAT guitar tones. But they aren't the sound of that amp sitting at home that you just love. That amp that sounds sweeter than anything else when you dial it that certain way. You might get close after more or less time tweaking, but it won't be THAT amp.
It isn't a fair comparison for either the Kemper or the other machines. I wouldn't be surprised if Kemper Amps aren't even paying attention to what the "competition" is doing.
A nice analogy is the video game console world. Back then when Microsoft came out with XBOX360 and had the most advanced and complicated controller, the best graphics, the most horsepower. The race was one of technology and number crunching. Nintendo decided they were tired of playing that game, so dropped out of that race. They released an 'underpowered' console with primitive graphics, but it could do something that the others couldn't : it had motion control and a very intuitive, simple, tactile interface. PS3 tried half-heartedly to get in on the act with the six axis (read Tone Match haha!), but it was too little, too late. Nintendo were out of the cycle and made a killing.
What happened since then though... 
Display MoreI'm sure that even if or when there will be a new kemper sometime several years from now with some new features it will still be back compatible and can play the exact same sounds from the profiles we users have created today. They designed their Access Virus series with longevity in mind. The first generation of the virus sythesizer is from 1997. Even the old models still get firmware updates and can be serviced. I don't know another product in this category that is so future proof. That is a big difference compared to Line6, Axe fx, Boss gear etc that drop the support for older products when a new model is released. Fractal releases new Axe fx products every 2-3 years dropping support for older gear. I also really like that the Kemper sound doesn't change after firmware updates like the Axe fx 2 that I have to spend time re-tweaking, not having a consistent tone each fw.
Here is info from a thread about the kempers long planned lifespan.
"Why the Kemper is really future proof for at least the next 15 years"
Quote from C.Kemper.
"We have no plans or ideas to improve the core sound engine of the profiler in terms of getting closer to something.
If we ever applied changes to that in the future, we will still make existing profiles and rigs sound the same.
My plan is to let your profiles and rigs sound the same in 15 years, as
you have created it today. No matter what hardware, software or firmware
you run it on. Of course there will be improvements and paradigm
shifts. But no technical innovation can algorithmically improve the
sounds that you have created by 20% or whatsoever. If there is an
innovation, you will have to add it to your sound by hand and in
purpose."
Above is a good quote from C.Kemper from the first page for those who didn't read the whole thread.
I like that they have a good longevity plan, just like their Virus synth models.
HappyKemper,
Note that we're not talking about tone here, when we refer to other devices like the Helix or the Axe FX. What the Kemper is lacking compared to them is features. The floor format of both the Helix and the AX8 is also VERY attractive to gigging musicians that don't have oompa loompas as roadies. And just think about where the Helix and the Axe FX will be in 5 years. I mean they're pretty close in tone to the real thing right now, so who's to say that they won't nail it just like the Kemper has. If they do, what would the selling point be for the Kemper?
Obviously, there will be firmaware updates that will improve the Kemper's software. But NOTHING, other than a hardware update, will make it do the things that the Helix, for example, can do today. And THAT, my friend, is what we're talking about here :-).
BTW, Kemper did mention "improvements and paradigm shift" in your quote of him. Who's to say that doesn't mean a new Kemper unit?
If they do, what would the selling point be for the Kemper?
See my post above
BTW, Kemper did mention "improvements and paradigm shift" in your quote of him. Who's to say that doesn't mean a new Kemper unit?
I think you're looking at the sentence out of context, Jose.
The one that followed is instructive:
But no technical innovation can algorithmically improve the sounds that you have created by 20% or whatsoever.
IOW, he knows the thing's "already there".
The next sentence:
If there is an innovation, you will have to add it to your sound by hand and in purpose.
I take this as meaning that, seeing as the Kemper's already there in terms of delivering real amp tones, any "innovation" to an owner's sound will have to come from add-ons such as pedals or whatever, or indeed from playing technique.
IMHO it's difficult to know for certain what CK meant, but that's my take for what it's worth. I don't see it in any way as hinting at a new model.
See my post above
If profiling was the ONLY selling point that the Kemper had then it wouldn't be much competition to modelers. For example, the Axe FX II has over 200 amps available and counting. Not only that, but Fractal keeps improving them constantly. The Helix is on the same path of constantly improving and adding more amp models to its catalogue. There will be a point where tone between the top devices of this kind will not matter at all, and all that will matter are features. And believe me, we are VERY close to that point (some people may even argue that we're already there). This (features) is where the Kemper is falling behind.
I think you're looking at the sentence out of context, Jose.
Perhaps. But who's to say, other than Kemper himself, that I am wrong?
QuoteDisplay MoreThe one that followed is instructive:
But no technical innovation can algorithmically improve the sounds that you have created by 20% or whatsoever.
IOW, he knows the thing's "already there".
The next sentence:
If there is an innovation, you will have to add it to your sound by hand and in purpose.
I take this as meaning that, seeing as the Kemper's already there in terms of delivering real amp tones, any "innovation" to an owner's sound will have to come from add-ons such as pedals or whatever, or indeed from playing technique.
IMHO it's difficult to know for certain what CK meant, but that's my take for what it's worth. I don't see it in any way as hinting at a new model.
You guys keep bringing up the tone. I think I've already explained that I definitely prefer the tone of the Kemper, that's why I have one for crying out loud, lol. I'm talking about features here. Keyword: FEATURES.
If profiling was the ONLY selling point that the Kemper had then it wouldn't be much competition to modelers. For example, the Axe FX II has over 200 amps available and counting. Not only that, but Fractal keeps improving them constantly. The Helix is on the same path of constantly improving and adding more amp models to its catalogue. There will be a point where tone between the top devices of this kind will not matter at all, and all that will matter are features. And believe me, we are VERY close to that point (some people may even argue that we're already there). This (features) is where the Kemper is falling behind.
But they aren't YOUR amp! Having the opportunity to take the exact same sound on tour as you had on your recording shouldn't be taken lightly! I think your points are valid from a bedroom player's perspective (not to sound condescending), but it's among those that record and gig regularly in larger venues that the KPA has its core sales potential. It was always more likely to find its customers amongst the pro market, and I even think it was aimed that way to begin with. Sure, the Helix has more flexible routing capabilities, but I believe that most pros will be using it with their regular amps, mainly as a multi effect/controller. I think it's more the semi pro market that will look to using it as an all-in-one solution. Maybe I'm wrong, but the fact is that the KPA isn't just another modeller, and to compare with others just isn't fair.
But they aren't YOUR amp! Having the opportunity to take the exact same sound on tour as you had on your recording shouldn't be taken lightly! I think your points are valid from a bedroom player's perspective (not to sound condescending), but it's among those that record and gig regularly in larger venues that the KPA has its core sales potential. It was always more likely to find its customers amongst the pro market, and I even think it was aimed that way to begin with. Sure, the Helix has more flexible routing capabilities, but I believe that most pros will be using it with their regular amps, mainly as a multi effect/controller. I think it's more the semi pro market that will look to using it as an all-in-one solution. Maybe I'm wrong, but the fact is that the KPA isn't just another modeller, and to compare with others just isn't fair.
It's true that being able to profile one's amps is a great feature that only the Kemper has. No denying that. However, a lot of amps are just different shades of classic amps. Once you get to a certain number of models, you can nail pretty much any tone you want. This is the point that I was trying to get across earlier when I mentioned that the Axe FX II has 200+ amp models and counting. With that many amp models a person can recreate their tone without issue.
BTW, I'm not a bedroom musician. I gig and also record regularly, which is why I still would love to have a Kemper with the features and format of a Helix. In fact, that is the reason why I use them both together at gigs:
Post your Kemper Rig Pictures Please
Because I play out a lot is the very reason why I would like to have a simpler setup. Less things to carry without sacrificing tone. It would be my ideal. And who cares how these digital devices achieve their goals. Whether it's a profiler or a modeler, the end results are the same (to provide the user with great tones in one box). That's why people have and will keep comparing these products.
I must say that I find the AX8 very attractive because of the form factor.
But what stops me is the idea of going back and look for good IR's and thinks like that, which I have already done when I owned the AF ultra.
Helix has never came into my attention because I have relied many times on Line6 modeling and I never been satisfied.
But, my friend, I don't play with features. Usually I make music with tone.
I have never asked my tube head to be with more options. I love it the way it is, and the only way to carry it around (for a good 90%) is the KPA.
I'm wondering, where all the hobby and semi pro players are, who demand or actually use these many features. I'm not taking about the (Helix) UI but about features that are needed to play their music.
Most guitarists I know and see playing need a good amp tone and a few effects. Nothing too special or freaked out stuff...
I'm wondering how people who like to have such features / routing options /... would use them if they were available (or which of the features Helix and Axe fx users are actually using).
The only thing which could potentially be in the making is a floor based unit.
Other than that - routing shmouting.. no other digital amp on the market is even close to what Kemper can do pure tone wise, this quality was chased by all competition since Kemper was released and as of now nobody was able to catch up. Not sure there is anything to upgrade here. If there is C.K. definitely knows about it.
I'm wondering, where all the hobby and semi pro players are, who demand or actually use these many features. I'm not taking about the (Helix) UI but about features that are needed to play their music.
Most guitarists I know and see playing need a good amp tone and a few effects. Nothing too special or freaked out stuff...
I'm wondering how people who like to have such features / routing options /... would use them if they were available (or which of the features Helix and Axe fx users are actually using).
A lot of pro guitarists use the Axe FX for it's effects rather than its amp modeling. For example, Steve Vai uses the Axe for effects on tour and seemingly pushes it to its limits.
If profiling was the ONLY selling point that the Kemper had then it wouldn't be much competition to modelers.
In my opinion, this isn't necessarily true. While I think extra features can definitely be a bonus, a lot of tone purists are interested in the most authentic amp tone possible. If they had to choose between a unit that didn't have a ton of features but was 99% - 100% indistinguishable from the real thing vs. a unit that had a lot of features but required a lot of tweaking to sound fairly realistic, I'd wager most of them would opt for the former. Obviously there are those who aren't as concerned with authenticity and want as many features as possible, but in the end I'd wager authenticity wins out. In my opinion, that's why modeling companies continue to fervently tout how realistic their most current generation of amp models sound.
For example, the Axe FX II has over 200 amps available and counting. Not only that, but Fractal keeps improving them constantly.
Consider that out of the 200, some are alternate amp channels, not different amps. Most amps that are available for the Axe are available for the Kemper, however there are a ton of amps available for the Kemper that the Axe doesn't have. Examples include Laney, Tone King Sky King, Brunetti, Engl Invader, Krank Rev 1, Bogner Metropolis, and far too many others to list.
There will be a point where tone between the top devices of this kind will not matter at all, and all that will matter are features. And believe me, we are VERY close to that point (some people may even argue that we're already there). This (features) is where the Kemper is falling behind.
I own an Axe FX II XL+ and yes, it can be made to sound fantastic; it just depends on how much time you want to spend with it. The Axe has seemingly infinite depth of control and tweakability, and while that might seem like one of its strongest points on the surface, in reality it tends to act as an impediment, for me anyway. In my opinion, excessive tweaking can lead to loss of perspective, and that's the one area I think Kemper has an advantage. It offers immediacy of great tone. That said, I do love and use the Axe FX's effects, but admittedly the amp modeling leaves me a bit cold.
My two cents in this:
I think the germans have it figured out. I like Kemper for the exact same reason I like RME: stability!
With the UCX and Kemper, I know that I have products that will be supported for a long time. That is key for me. Beyond anything. If you like Line 6 version, with "updated" and new products all the time, go Line 6 and buy the new stuff after each NAMM. Then you can always have the newest stuff that always "raises the bar".
Not for me.
I have to say, after using multiple modelers for over a decade, the knowledge that there is a modeler that will not go obsolete in its tones is a huge incentive to purchase. All other modelers have become obsolete as the companies use new technology to find new customers with "improvements". It's so cool that a purchase of a Kemper gets you off that train. Just think of the money you will save (those that bought a new Line 6 XT Live, then upgraded to an X3, then upgraded to a HD500, then to a Helix for example).
Kemper obviously is thinking in different ways than the other manufacturers, and it is amazing that they allow us as part of the process.
BTW, in a perhaps unrelated note, there is talk around the campfire that the absurdly high cost TigerSHARC DSP ICs used in the Fractal equipment has gone end of life, meaning the users have been told they have to make lifetime buys now. This means that perhaps the AxeFX will either need to be redesigned, a compatible part selected (might be difficult with a >$600 DSP IC), or the product will be dropped. Maybe new Kemper customers??
BTW, in a perhaps unrelated note, there is talk around the campfire that the absurdly high cost TigerSHARC DSP ICs used in the Fractal equipment has gone end of life, meaning the users have been told they have to make lifetime buys now. This means that perhaps the AxeFX will either need to be redesigned, a compatible part selected (might be difficult with a >$600 DSP IC), or the product will be dropped. Maybe new Kemper customers??
Analog Devices has designated a 'Last Time Buy' (planned obsolescence) notice regarding the TigerSHARC, though they provide 12 months for customers to make final purchases and will continue to ship the product for up to 24 months from the PDN (Product Discontinuance Notice) date. That said, I have little doubt Fractal Audio will continue to produce the Axe FX in one form another, whether it be a redesigned unit or otherwise.
A lot of pro guitarists use the Axe FX for it's effects rather than its amp modeling. For example, Steve Vai uses the Axe for effects on tour and seemingly pushes it to its limits.
Yes, I see. However I wasn't talking about Steve Vai but about hobby and semi-pro players like (I guess) >80 or 90% of the forum users.
I think people like Steve Vai don't care if they have one or two items more or less in their rig. He also is a user who doesn't use it for its amp tones but as an FX unit.I don't think that many people even consider using a Kemper in such a setup because there are better solutions out there (and I'm pretty sure people who like to use just the effects aren't target customers for Kemper).
I must say that I find the AX8 very attractive because of the form factor.
But what stops me is the idea of going back and look for good IR's and thinks like that, which I have already done when I owned the AF ultra.
Helix has never came into my attention because I have relied many times on Line6 modeling and I never been satisfied.
But, my friend, I don't play with features. Usually I make music with tone.
I have never asked my tube head to be with more options. I love it the way it is, and the only way to carry it around (for a good 90%) is the KPA.
I know what you mean about spending time tweaking and all of that. This is why I prefer the Kemper, cause I am able to find the tone I want much quicker with it than with the Helix. But I keep having to repeat myself here that I agree that the tones in the Kemper are superior. No argument there. What I would like for it to have are things like:
- Support for multiple Sample a Rates.
- More flexibility in its routing both from the hardware and software.
- A smaller form factor, like that of the Helix.
- Dual profile capabilities.
- Customizable scribble strips.
- A PC/Mac editor (not a huge deal, but it would be nice).
Maybe most people here are not wanting any of these features. But I can tell you that there are plenty, like me, who would love a device like this if it ever came out. I'm sure there's other stuff I'm forgetting, but these would be the main ones I would love to have. These are things I'm positive any professional gigging and/or recording musician would appreciate :-).
