How can I get my palm-mutes closer to the reference amp?

    Hey guys,


    Let me preface this: I am not here to troll, defame, or denigrate the profiler in anyway. As a tool, it's just amazing and I do really love it.


    Having said that, there is a long standing issue that I am having with it, going all the way back to firmware 2.6 at least. So either I'm doing something wrong (my preferred outcome!) or the Kemper could do with a little more accuracy in this area - and it's to do with palm mute frequency response. Generally I am happy when playing clean tones, and I cannot really distinguish between the reference amp and the profile. But when it comes to palm muted metal or hard-rock passages, I can very often tell the difference, even if I cannot specifically pick the Kemper.


    The amp is a Fryette Sig X, but I've had the same experience with other amps, namely a Diezel D-Moll and a Laney VH100R. The cab is an Egnater Tourmaster 4x12 with v30's. So it's not amp specific. I've used the same guitar in all cases, which is a Orville Les Paul Custom with Seymour Duncan Distortions set - the SH6's.
    I've done some recordings that I want to walk you through:


    Set A:
    https://drive.google.com/folde…1tNEItN0ZFWjg&usp=sharing


    ReferenceAmp.wav - Recording of the reference amp.
    PreRefine.wav - the profile before any refining has been done.
    PostRefine_3Minutes playing.wav - I wanted to see if the length of the refine period made much difference. It didn't seem to.


    Set B:
    https://drive.google.com/folde…RKbjBTekpKelE&usp=sharing


    ReferenceAmp.wav - Recording of the reference amp.
    PreRefine.wav - the profile before any refining has been done.
    PostRefine_SameSettings.wav - Leaving the amp at the same settings, I refined the profile.
    PostRefine_LowerDepth.wav - I then used the undo feature to remove the refinements. I then turned the poweramp depth down on the amp to reduce the low-end coming from the cab, and then did another refine stage.


    Set C:
    https://drive.google.com/folde…5QYzJoYVhLLVk&usp=sharing
    ReferenceAmp.wav - Recording of the reference amp.
    PreRefine.wav - the profile before any refining has been done.
    PostRefine_LowChords.wav - Previous refinements used all strings and a variety of chords. This one just used basic powerchords on the lowest three strings.


    Set D:
    https://drive.google.com/folde…QzdmJDVFd0NDA&usp=sharing
    ReferenceAmp_PalmLoops.wav - A looped snippet of the reference amp.
    PreRefine_PalmLoops.wav - A looped snippet of the profile before any refining has been done.
    PostRefine_PalmLoops.wav - A looped snippet of the profile after refining.


    In all four cases as you can hear, the nature of the low-end response (particularly when playing palm mutes) is not that accurate to the real amp. I am wondering whether I am doing something wrong, or if the Profiler just isn't supposed to be this accurate? I am struggling to believe that though, because the likes of LasseLammert seem to have gotten much closer than I can.


    Is it to do with gain-staging perhaps? I don't see how, but it could. I have an SM57beta in front of the speaker and about two inches away from the grille cloth. It's then plugged straight into the Kemper. Nothing special going on here. I have an acoustically treated room, so room reflections shouldn't really be causing this.


    To me it sounds like all of the pre-refine clips are much closer in the low end, but the gain amount and the high-end frequency response is quite different. So some amount of refining is needed, but maybe I am doing it wrong??


    Any tips on how I can get closer folks??

    Edited once, last by drew_fx ().

    I quickly googled the head, and it seems it has some pretty nontraditional stuff inside (dynamic sense tech for example). Maybe it is noticeably different from a traditional tube design, and this is why the KPA has a hard time copying it. Just a guess.


    EDIT: Oh okay, I see you have tried other amps too. My bad.


    Have you also tried to do a refining process where you only concentrate on palm mutes on the lowest string? Might fuck up the higher notes, but maybe it worth a try.

    Quote from DanielRigler

    I quickly googled the head, and it seems it has some pretty nontraditional stuff inside (dynamic sense tech for example). Maybe it is noticeably different from a traditional tube design, and this is why the KPA has a hard time copying it. Just a guess.


    EDIT: Oh okay, I see you have tried other amps too. My bad.


    Interesting point actually. It's been a while since I tried to profile another head, and I may be misremembering. Let me give it a go and update you later.


    Quote

    Have you also tried to do a refining process where you only concentrate on palm mutes on the lowest string? Might fuck up the higher notes, but maybe it worth a try.


    I will try it and post clips.


    I should add, I don't think any of these tones sound bad. Just different.

    Edited once, last by drew_fx ().

    I remember reading that Michael Wagner does the opposite while refining. For example, if he feels the low end is off, he plays chords high up on the fretboard and vice versa. Might be worth a shot.


    I haven't listened to the clips, but I remember having a hard time getting the low end right with my V-Twin rack and 20/20 poweramp. There was a saturation that the KPA just couldn't get right, almost like a fuzz. I've since learned that it because of a specific architecture in the V-Twin and the distortion circuit. It isn't traditional tube-like, but has clipping diodes, too. If you search for Anderton's profiling session video on YouTube, you can hear/see that they have the same problem at one point.

    I remember a FW revision that was supposed to improve the low end


    When I checked using ozone I found an improvement but some still seemed slightly lacking


    I didn't stress to much about it because the area that was lacking tends to get pulled down in recordings anyhow with EQ


    With refining I would do chords, stone temple pilot type chords, palm mutes and would always play right up the top of the neck (sometimes would get exaggerated highs without)


    90% this would be very very close to the original by ear and EQ curves

    Hey Chris - awesome product - sorry to but-in


    Is a new FW release far-off that fixes the " Midi Program Change in Browse Mode Corrupting Rigs " Bug that is still [ known to be ] in the current [ as of now ] 3.1.1 PB ?


    Ben

    Sure I can.


    I wonder why the recording of the reference amp and the profile have different volumes.
    Did you A/B compare and record both through the profiler, as recommended?

    Quote from ckemper

    Sure I can.


    I wonder why the recording of the reference amp and the profile have different volumes.
    Did you A/B compare and record both through the profiler, as recommended?


    Indeed I did. The volumes are slightly different, true. But I don't think that is causing this issue - you can throw them into any DAW and match the peak volumes, and you'll hear that the Kemper has this low-end resonance that isn't really there in the original reference.


    Everything was recorded through the Kemper, with no post-processing. I've had this similar result in two different places as well, so I don't believe it's my room.


    Is there anything you want me to try changing?


    To me, it sounds like the pre-refined clips are closer. So maybe it is down to what I'm doing during the refinement stage. What is the most ideal stuff to play during the refinement stage?

    I listened a bit closer.


    First of all, I can only see audio examples of set A and B.


    I was fooled by the volume difference in set A. After adjusting with my volume control I have the impression that the "PreRefine" clip seems to be spot on.


    Set B. The PreRefine is neary spot on, especially in the bass region. Could need just a bit of refining.


    It is worth mentioning that since a few firmwares that heavy refining is not mandatory, since the profiling process yields to exact results.
    However, the differences in the volumes of the clips let me doubt that we do not listen to the correct A/Bs.


    Matching the peak volumes of A/B examples is the worst thing you can do, because peak volumes can be somewhat arbitrary.


    Please send clips with no volume correction.

    Sorry, I thought I added set C and D - must've missed that. They've been added now. You should be able to compensate the differences in level (which are very slight) in a DAW. Once you do that, you'll see that the low-end isn't entirely correct.


    I don't doubt that it's me doing something wrong. But I'm really not sure what, and could really use some tips.


    Cheers Christophe!

    I will have to ask you to redo one profiling run and record it without changing the volumes afterwards.


    If you can't trust the levels, it is hard to say what is not correct. I can easily get to the point that at a certain level difference the conclusion could be that there is something wrong in the highs.This actually happened today

    I will do another one very soon then and post here. But I am disappointed that you're putting this all down to level differences. The level differences in these clips are not that big, and because of the extra low-end that the Kemper is putting in, if you compare via RMS measurements, the Kemper is always going to seem louder because of the extra low-end energy.


    Take set D. Which is a looped palm-mute. If you level match just using your ears in a DAW, the tonal differences are really obvious. And again... I'm not necessarily blaming the Kemper. I just need help to figure out what I'm doing wrong.


    I will post more clips this week.

    I have listened to the clips straight from the browser. I haven't found a way to save them from your Google Drive.



    I am not putting it down to level differences. But it is simply impossible to tell what the exact differences are if two clips that don't have the same original volume.


    Did you change the volume of the clips after recording?

    Quote from ckemper

    I have listened to the clips straight from the browser. I haven't found a way to save them from your Google Drive.


    Okay, I will provide a zip file instead. Apologies.


    Quote

    I am not putting it down to level differences. But it is simply impossible to tell what the exact differences are if two clips that don't have the same original volume.


    My mistake.


    Quote

    Did you change the volume of the clips after recording?


    I only normalized the clips. I didn't try to match them by ear, I got the peaks to the same level.


    Give me a few minutes, I'll zip everything up and send it to you. Including a new set (Set E) which I've just done tonight.

    Okay, here is a zip: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/630473/KemperPalmMuteTests.zip?dl


    Included is Set A, B, C, D, and E. I should mention that with all of these tests, the guitar is coming from a looping pedal, to ensure no performance variation.


    Set E:
    Reference - The reference amp.
    Before Refining - the profile captured with no refinement.
    After Refining - the profile after refining.
    RefinementGuitar - what I played during the refinement stage.


    I am happy to accept that I am doing something wrong. But every profile turns out exactly the same - slightly less gain or saturation (I can hear this in all of the clips) and the low-end doesn't sound quite right.


    Could there be a problem with my unit not being initialized correctly perhaps? Maybe I need to do a factory reset and re-install the latest firmware?