Happy new Kemper owner / Some questions about live setup

    Quote from Ingolf

    No problem. There have been groups of more people (than the ones being in a band together) being unanimously wrong. ;)


    Or a whole lot of forumers apparently :)


    ... seriously, that's some strange logic here. Here's another (more accurate?) one:


    - Fact 1: a tube amp sound different when it's mic'd, whatever the mic(s) and the preamp used.
    - Fact 2: Kemper is profiling a mic'd amp
    - Conclusion: using KPA cannot sound the same than a tube amp that is not mic'd, that's not the purpose, but can (exactly, and that's a wonderful device for that!) sound like a mic'd tube amp.


    So yes, me and my band members are preferring the pure tone of a tube amp that is not mic'd. And I think we're a lot feeling that way in real life.


    Oh, and telling us we're wrong is kinda insulting also: if it works for the tone you're after, great. But not considering that not everyone is looking for the same thing tonewise and that depending on that and on the genre it may differs from one band to another is kind of a strange reasoning don't you think?

    Quote from StephaneDupont

    Dude, seriously, be nice and not condescending would you?


    Wasn't meant this way.
    If you feel offended please accept my apologies.
    I only intend to contribute in a constructive way and personally I feel there's a serious flaw in your argumentation.

    Quote from Ingolf

    To be more specific on this: I know that you and your band mates may feel it sounds awesome on stage, and this may well be true for a few other spots in the audience, but for most of them the listening experience will be way inferior.


    Once again, I'm pretty sure it depends on the place. When you play in small caves, punk squats, etc., when you play in venues where's often there's not even a PA, in venues where there's not even a stage and where you're literally at 30cm of the audience, I'm pretty confident about my reasoning.

    That being said, and to conclude on a positive note, I'm saying it again: I'm blown away by the Kemper and won't ever record an album again without it. And hell, if one day avant-garde music has enough audience to play on big stages, I'll use it also, most certainly!


    But it's a mic'd amp simulation (or profiling tool, or whatever ^^), it can't be the same as a non mic'd amp. Saying that would be the same as saying micing an amp has no influence on its tone.


    Still a happy Kemper user :)

    Quote from Ingolf

    I think what viabcroce said is 100% true. Have you ever cared to be a part of your own audience.?
    A tube amp blasting a whole club from the stage will sound awesome in certain spots but absolutely terrible in many others.


    Yep, this is the point I was making. A guitar cab sounds very different if the listener just moves aside by 50 cm... I did not mean that they will hear a somehow unpleasant sound, just that the sound will be completely different depending on their position. and you'll have no idea of what they are hearing from your position, really.



    Quote from StephaneDupont

    - Fact 1: a tube amp sound different when it's mic'd, whatever the mic(s) and the preamp used.
    - Fact 2: Kemper is profiling a mic'd amp
    - Conclusion: using KPA cannot sound the same than a tube amp that is not mic'd,


    Well, this is not correct on a principle. The facts are that most profiles are taken in such a way that it leads to Conclusion. But it's a matter of technique, not of technology.
    Jay Mitchell, the designer of the CLR, has clearly described in several occasions how to obtain a cab IR that through an appropriate audio system sounds like the amp.


    Quote from StephaneDupont

    in venues where there's not even a stage and where you're literally at 30cm of the audience, I'm pretty confident about my reasoning.


    The closer the listener, the worse the issue we're discussing actually...
    Put your amp on a chair, cranck it up and stand in front of it @ 30 com... then move aside, and closer and farer. You'll see that the sound "consistently" varies from listening spot to listening spot. While this is true for any kind of acoustic transducer, a guitar cab (by its design) certainly empathises this much more that a linear cab, specially one designed with a consistent diffusion pattern in mind.
    Pretty sure this is what Ingolf was referring to when he rhetorically asked you whether you had ever been part of your audience. Certainly no offence was meant.

    Quote from viabcroce


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    Pretty sure this is what Ingolf was referring to when he rhetorically asked you whether you had ever been part of your audience. Certainly no offence was meant.


    Yes, this, thank you, Gianfranco. ;)

    Well, we could continue to argue (yes, it may be theoretically possible like the CLR guy said, but it's not the case with the Kemper profiles I use - and they are M Britt ones, not the worst profiles I think everyone will agree! - they sound perfectly like a mic'd amp, not like an amp), but I won't: I tried, and too much magic is missing against a real tube amp for me. Won't try again as I tend to trust my guts on these matters, and bought a new tube amp yesterday anyway to replace my dead one :)


    Thanks everyone for your input.

    Fail, Kemper! Fail! Fail! Fail! Just not "real" enough.


    Need Opus Maximus Quanticus™ FW update...


    Just havin' a bit o' fun Stephane; it's an old joke around here.


    I actually understand where you're coming from. I used to play in those sorts of venues quite a bit back in the day. I do think that you should be able to achieve the "impact" you're after with a favourite cab and power amp. You could hire the amp, and if you like the effect then you could upgrade your Kemper with a built-in one (600w). Failing that, I'm surprised you haven't found that simply turning Pure Cab™ up past, say, a setting of 3 or so, helped reduce that "mic'd-up" sound.


    Whatever you do, good luck mate.

    Ha! Stephane, I for one am not arguing at all!


    Strange that you didn't even ask how it's possible to create an IR that sounds like an amp in the room...
    ... As for Michael, he did what he did because he is perfectly accustomed to how a mic'ed amp sounds, and it's all he needs. IOW, I don't think he has ever looked for the so called "amp in the room" sound.


    Happy music with whatever floats your boat mate :)

    Quote from StephaneDupont

    Well, we could continue to argue (yes, it may be theoretically possible like the CLR guy said, but it's not the case with the Kemper profiles I use - and they are M Britt ones, not the worst profiles I think everyone will agree! - they sound perfectly like a mic'd amp, not like an amp), but I won't: I tried, and too much magic is missing against a real tube amp for me. Won't try again as I tend to trust my guts on these matters, and bought a new tube amp yesterday anyway to replace my dead one :)


    Thanks everyone for your input.


    Hi Stephane,


    If you are seriousl about playing your KPA live, but have concerns about sending a "mic'd" guitar cab sound out to your respective audience, then why not just use Direct Amp (DA) or Merged Profiles with Cab off, and play through your normal guitar cabinet? I mean, problem solved, yes?


    Cheers,
    John

    Edited 2 times, last by Tritium ().

    Like 1

    Thank you all for your messages,


    @Tritium : I could have tried that yes, that was my original question, but as almost everyone told me to try FRFR, I changed my mind and tried FRFR. But yes, I should have also tried with a guitar cab. But ultimately I thought that I'll keep my tube amp setup for a while and study the question again maybe later.


    That way the Kemper stays warm at home and in the studio :)

    I haven't gotten used to FRFR either (though I haven't tried any of the usual suspects; DXR, CLR, Q12, ASM12 etc.). For me, a nice compromise has been Matrix's NeoLight cabs. They are essentially extended frequency range guitar cabinets with neodymium magnets, meaning they're much lighter than regular cabs and also allow you to hear more of the individuality of the Cab part of profiles. Something like a Camplifier poweramp in the back of your toaster could power a couple of NL212s and give you an experience akin to having 2 4x12s on either side of the stage (me, I use an Ambrosi ATM 70 in my toaster, but also have a Powerrack).