How to create a profile that responds accurately to pickup-switches during play?

    When I make a profile using the bridge pickup during the "refinement" process, the profiled sound behaves pretty much identical to the real amp - while playing with the bridge pickup.
    However - when switching from bridge to neck pickup on my guitar, the very same profile does NOT sound the same as the real amp. It sounds too bright and edgy. Too "bridge pickup-esque".


    This is a problem when playing solos and you want to maintain the feel of switching between bridge and neck-pickup during play.


    I can see that this problem has a logical explanation, given that the Kemper has in fact not been told what the neck pickup sounds like, and can thus not profile this sound.
    I have tried alternating between bridge and neck pickups during the refinement process, to give the Kemper information from both sounds. But this just results in neither pickup being reproduced accurately.


    My question is: How would you create a profile that stays true to the behavior of the real amp while alternating pickups of the guitar?


    Thankful for any ideas. :thumbup:

    It was one of the first thing I noticed! it reacts different when you are switching pickups. On a real tubeamp the different sounds is more even! On the Kemper it changes more! I usually play with one pickup configuration during one song, and make different rigs to use on quacky stratsond, and own rigs on meaty neckpickup sound! and compleetely new rigs when i change to a Telecaster.. I dont know the terminology or tecknickal words for it, but it seems like the Kemper react more on frequensees on different pickups and different types of pickups!

    So refine with both pickups. The accuracy of the profile is only defined by the information you give it, and there's no time limit on how long or how many times you can refine a profile. I know the videos showed them just playing a couple of chords to refine, but in my experience doing that only makes profiles worse. Alternatively don't refine at all, as paults mentioned, the algorithm has improved and Kemper claim you no longer need to refine.

    Quote from Wissmaster

    I can see that this problem has a logical explanation, given that the Kemper has in fact not been told what the neck pickup sounds like, and can thus not profile this sound.

    Welcome!


    Just to address this issue; the profiler does not actually profile the pickup or guitars. The profile should be accurate to the tube amp, no matter which guitar is used. The refining process is an "alternative" signal used during profiling (if the person choses to do this step), but it does NOT bake in the sound of the guitar into the profile.


    That said, there have been a few reports of differences in the resulting profiles depending on which guitar was used during the refining step. But this is not "intended".

    Quote from Michael_dk

    Welcome!
    Just to address this issue; the profiler does not actually profile the pickup or guitars. The profile should be accurate to the tube amp, no matter which guitar is used. The refining process is an "alternative" signal used during profiling (if the person choses to do this step), but it does NOT bake in the sound of the guitar into the profile.


    That said, there have been a few reports of differences in the resulting profiles depending on which guitar was used during the refining step. But this is not "intended".

    What do you mean "not intended" @Michael_dk?

    Quote from Michael_dk

    Welcome!


    Just to address this issue; the profiler does not actually profile the pickup or guitars. The profile should be accurate to the tube amp, no matter which guitar is used. The refining process is an "alternative" signal used during profiling (if the person choses to do this step), but it does NOT bake in the sound of the guitar into the profile.


    That said, there have been a few reports of differences in the resulting profiles depending on which guitar was used during the refining step. But this is not "Thintended".

    Thank you!


    I find that using the "redifine" process makes the replicated sound very accurate, so it is on hand hand desirable to use it. However - it's not like you can choose not to select a pickup on your guitar while redefining, so you are in fact making a choice as to which information the Kemper is receiving while redefining. This shows as follows in my case:


    While redefining with the bridge pickup, the profiled sound gets a more pronounced high end, by default. And when I play on that profile with the neck pickup, the sounds is a bit brighter than it normally would be, had I not fed the Kemper with the bridged sound during redefining. The same pattern occurs when doing the opposite. Redefining with the neck pickup make the profiled sound a bit rounder and less sharp, as per default - and when playing that profile with the bridge pickup the sounds is not quite as clear in the highs as it normally would when playing the real amp. I hope I am making myself clear. :)


    Not redefining at all doesn't mean that the kemper knows how the real amp would react to the pickup switch - because no such information has been provided. At least this is how I interpret the profiling process.

    Quote from Wissmaster

    Not redefining at all doesn't mean that the kemper knows how the real amp would react to the pickup switch - because no such information has been provided. At least this is how I interpret the profiling process.

    This is not really true (again, this is not the INTENTION behind the refining step).


    It is merely a "further help" for the profiler to determine how the amp sounds, period. Not how the amp sounds "with a given pickup". Some users' experience seem to indicate that the guitar used during the refining step DOES make a difference, but this is not the idea. Ideally, the kemper takes a snapshot of the amp which includes how it reacts to any kind of input signal. The refining step (IF NEEDED) should only help the profiler determine this more accurately - BUT without baking in the sound of the particular guitar.



    I wanted to insert the section from the profiling manual (version 5.1) , but cut n paste screws it up. See for yourself in the chapter "Refining the profile", on page 16 of the profiling manual (download from rig manager, or from the webpage - there's a link from the FAQ which you can find in my signature).


    OK, I'll insert it anyway, but for some reason, some letters are missing:









    Quote from Profiling Manual, page 16

    Re ning the Pro le
    After the automatic pro ling procedure, the Pro le is nearly done and very close to the original already. Now it’stime to give it the nal polish: press “Re ne Pro le” and play your guitar for about twenty seconds. This is notime for a meaningful solo - you need to play several chords, with attitude! This will generate inter-modulation inthe distortion that the Pro ler needs to do its re ning. Be sure to strum especially hard so that the Pro ler has achance to analyze the transients. When you feel that you have re ned the Pro le enough, press the blinking softbutton to stop the process. Now make another A/B comparison to check the result. Repeat the process until youare satis ed.
    The re ning process is actually independent of the type of your guitar. It is about adapting the distortion char-acteristics, as well as polishing the attack and dynamic response. The resulting Pro le will act and respond accu-rately no matter what guitar or pickup you use.
    With completely clean sounds, you don’t need to worry about re ning the distortion characteristics, so “Re nePro le” isn’t available. If you nd that the Pro le o ers a wider dynamic range, and a higher volume in the tran-sients compared to the original, the reason is probably that the original sound was, in fact, slightly distorted. Thiswould have caused a small amount of compression, thereby a ecting the result of the pro ling process. In such acase, simply repeat the whole procedure, but without using the “Clean” option.
    Power amp tubes generate a di erent type of overtone structure than preamp tubes. They distort with a harshersound, because the negative feedback in the power amp circuit linearizes the tube ampli cation. This makes thedistortion curve edgier. If you notice in the A/B comparison that the reference amp produces more high frequen-cy distortion when light distortion is applied, you should set the “Tube shape” parameter to about 9.0, to get thesame behavior from the Pro le.

    I can see that it is not intended, that's probably the reason I am having this issue. Given that as a fact, how do you guys go about creating a solid lead tone that reacts to pick up switches as realistically as possible?


    My closest solution, which is a tricky one, is to create one bridge profile and one neck profile, and then toggle between them via MIDI while playing. That way, both the sound of the neck pickup and the bridge pickup will be very accurate.


    I'm sure there are better ways though.

    Quote from nightlight

    That's the only way I can see around the problem @Wissmaster. I'm curious to know, did you try not refining and check the results?

    Yes, tried that, and what happens is that the pick up switching behavior in itself gets more realistic, but the tone of each pickup gets less accurate compared to when they are refined.

    Ok, I will add something he can try to even out the rig sound. Try adjusting the cabinet "Hi/Lo shift" . It might be easier then editing the amplifier section.