Kemper vs. Real Amp Test - Cameron CCV

    Quote from Bommel

    Dimi i know that problem well but, have you seen the advices ? At this point i thing there is no denying that this problem exists. a sticky thread would be important i think ... more will come with the same problem :D

    I'm not sure how long this problem has been around actually. It may have been present since the beginning. I heard it in a lot of clips over the years as I was watching the evolution of the KPA. It was one of my main concerns but I thought either it was some kind of user oversight or it could probably be worked around via tweaks inside the KPA. However this does not seem to be the case. Thus far I haven't been able to decipher any methodology within the KPA to deal with this. And frankly for a device so expensive we really shouldn't be having to struggle. IMO either the device should handle it properly or we should be given some kind of guidance as to how to profile and/or post-tweak inside the KPA to correct things.

    Quote from Dimi84

    The Kemper cannot profile any of my amps well when the power stage is driven very hard and there's significant sag and some power amp distortion introduced (if the preamp is also distorting). The Laney in particular, testing it today -- the more I push the power stage the less similar the profile. Running at about 12 o clock I do get relatively close to the real amp but the Kemper still sounds thinner and lacks body.

    Dimi, this may seem like an obvious question, but just to be thorough, have you experimented with the refining process on that amp? If so, did it improve the result to get it close or was it still off?

    Here's the link to the tests I was thinking of:


    Harmonics missing in profiles


    Turns out it was the even harmonics that were missing, so add that to the confusion. To further the confusion even more, @deadpan did some profiles that captured these missing harmonics (see page 6). Contrary to some suggestions in the older thread, IMHO, these sine wave tests of profiles are both relevant and meaningful. They accurately depict the harmonic spectrum at a steady-state for a given note at a given signal level. It's not the whole picture, but it is an important part of it.

    I hate emojis, but I hate being misunderstood more. :)

    Like 1
    Quote from Klappy

    Here's the link to the tests I was thinking of:


    Harmonics missing in profiles


    Turns out it was the even harmonics that were missing, so add that to the confusion. To further the confusion even more, @deadpan did some profiles that captured these missing harmonics (see page 6). Contrary to some suggestions in the older thread, IMHO, these sine wave tests of profiles are both relevant and meaningful. They accurately depict the harmonic spectrum at a steady-state for a given note at a given signal level. It's not the whole picture, but it is an important part of it.

    Thanks. Wow. It is exactly as my ears described. Right down to some of the frequency areas, the lack of proper body, the thinner solo notes and they also found the Clarity knob helped correct some of it but had other side effects in doing so. This is pretty much exactly as I've been describing since joining this discussion thread....and I used just my ears, no tools. And never saw that other thread. So as far as I'm concerned at this point nobody is going to convince me that I'm hearing things or that this issue isn't real or isn't relevant . Now, exactly why it is happening or how to correct it remains elusive, but the problem is clearly real.

    Well if it's the even harmonics missing, you can try adding a low level of an octave up after the amp section to at least get back some even harmonics. It might help a bit.


    I have to admit that I'm a little surprised that it's the even harmonics missing, but these tests seem valid. But I still think there is something else going on here as well. I remember reading an AES paper on distortion perception a while back that noted the importance on the presence of intermodulation distortion on the way we perceive total distortion. THD levels alone didn't account for listeners subjective perceptions of how distorted and pleasant/unpleasant source material was. IMD was a big factor as well. I suspect that the purpose of the refining process is to match the IMD profile of the original amp. These missing harmonic distortions might not be as critical as the plots initially suggest, but I don't want to downplay their absence too much.

    I hate emojis, but I hate being misunderstood more. :)

    Or with an harmonic generator such as Waves' Saphira.


    There's another one that I have too, but I can't remember the name of it. You can dial in the level and ratio of odd : even-order harmonics.


    EDIT:
    Doesn't one of the Tube settings in the Amp section allow this? I'm pretty sure the cool -> warm parameter/s, usually labelled "Bias" or something to that effect, have been around on modellers for eons.

    Quote from ColdFrixion

    The harmonics can be replaced in large part with BBE's Sonic Maximizer.

    the only bad thing about the bbe is that it compresses the signal too much ... if you use a tele it suddely sounds like a active tele and that is why i sold that thing very fast


    what works better is the tc body rez imo ...

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    amx setting is a bit much xD but i was important so that you can clearly hear what it does ... the juice is back in the signal, the amp sounds rounder and yeah i happy with that ... also it you boost the kemper with a real overdrive, preferably the ocd or the dod 250 (something the has no mid focus like the tube screamer) the signal sounds just like i want it ...


    but we're running in circles here xD

    IMHO 2 kinds of users on this forum

    • Live players. They want reverbs,delays, fluffy ponies,etc
    • Studio players. They want a more accurate Kemper.

    In the video the guy went into how it is not as noticeable for live use. But when in the studio it's very apparent.


    I've been on this forum for about a year now. A lot has changed since the then. There are a lot more studio guys that can easily hear the difference. Before it was live players who adamantly opposed anyone that said something is amiss with the Kemper.


    I'm just some bedroom playing prick who can easily hear the difference. I wonder how Andy Sneap cannot hear it? What is he doing differently??

    Oh and as a help ... i talked to the tc support and the body rez is a mixture of eq, compressor and feddbacksupression ... maybe it is possible then to add this in fron of the amp inside the kemper

    Quote from SonicExporer

    Dimi, this may seem like an obvious question, but just to be thorough, have you experimented with the refining process on that amp? If so, did it improve the result to get it close or was it still off?

    Yes -- have refined by playing parts where I felt the Kemper was lacking.. as well as the opposite (as Wagener suggests). I've even tried changing amp EQ before refining. So while refining can help profiles match the amp I don't feel as if it gets us any closer in regards to the "missing body" issue. The profile I used in my video was the closest I could possibly get the amp tone.

    Perhaps the tones Andy Sneap usually goes for match better with the Kemper? Sometimes trying to profile certain tones it feels a bit similar to when you try tone matching an amp using bias FX and chose a modelled amp too far from the real amp. The EQ will get fairly close but you'll have issues. That's how I feel profiling my Laney.

    Yeah Michael.


    Warmer to one side (more-even harmonics), cooler to the other (more-odd ones).


    In theory, a minor adjustment should compensate for the slightly-lower level of even ones in a Profile when compared to the source amp.


    This should also restore a sense of thickness that might otherwise have been missed.

    Quote from Bommel

    the only bad thing about the bbe is that it compresses the signal too much ... if you use a tele it suddely sounds like a active tele and that is why i sold that thing very fast
    what works better is the tc body rez imo ...

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    amx setting is a bit much xD but i was important so that you can clearly hear what it does ... the juice is back in the signal, the amp sounds rounder and yeah i happy with that ... also it you boost the kemper with a real overdrive, preferably the ocd or the dod 250 (something the has no mid focus like the tube screamer) the signal sounds just like i want it ...


    but we're running in circles here xD

    The BBE works great on profiles with minor differences. With certain profiles that have a huge difference, like the one above, it may overcompress. Now, the BodyRez did bring a lot of the fullness back to the profile, but it didn't fix the frequency response. And even if you compensate for it by matching EQ, you're still left with a profile that doesn't sound very smooth or rounded compared to the original. The lesson here is to use an external pedal for fuzz because the KPA simply isn't able to accurately profile it, nor is there any way to truly correct such profiles.

    Quote from ColdFrixion

    The BBE works great on profiles with minor differences. With certain profiles that have a huge difference, like the one above, it may overcompress. Now, the BodyRez did bring a lot of the fullness back to the profile, but it didn't fix the frequency response. And even if you compensate for it by matching EQ, you're still left with a profile that doesn't sound very smooth or rounded compared to the original. The lesson here is to use an external pedal for fuzz because the KPA simply isn't able to accurately profile it, nor is there any way to truly correct such profiles.

    uhm in my example both are kemper profiles ... it just shows what the body rez does ...

    Quote from Bommel

    uhm in my example both are kemper profiles ... it just shows what the body rez does ...

    Do you have the original amp sample to compare those with? I mean, that's great that it adds more body, but the goal is to make it as accurate to the original amp as possible.

    well that was not my intention in this instance, my main goal is to make it sound good and since many complain about the lack of
    body i made this sample to show that this pedal is good for adding the body back in ...

    Quote from Bommel

    well that was not my intention in this instance, my main goal is to make it sound good and since many complain about the lack of
    body i made this sample to show that this pedal is good for adding the body back in ...

    There are a lot of ways to add body back in, but they may not be accurate to the original amp which was the theme of the thread.

    Complain -> lack of body ... bodyrez-> adding body back in ... in the sample is a max setting to show exactly what the pedal does.