Kemper vs. Real Amp Test - Cameron CCV

    There are plenty using power amp distortion, yes, just not bands that tune to drop z for the "djents" (which, i am sorry, but I want nothing to do with).. Just get an amp like a grandmeister, be able to crank it at the privacy of your bedroom/toilet/living room even without a cab... And you start to appreciate how power stages come alive. It's just that the kemper can do quite well up to a certain point. I find there to be a point where all bets are off (when you have much power amp distortion) and the profile will come out a potato. But with just a bit (or more, seen that too) of power amp break up at times the unit can do a fine job of profiling the amp, aside from the usual congestion issue.

    I would only hope that your types of tones fall into this category where the kemper can still profile them well.

    .. Which, at least when it comes to the DIO tone, if I can trust my ears, I'd say there isn't enough power amp break up to confuse the kemper. You will probably get the usual congestion issue but still get much closer to your desired tones.

    The Dio tone being revered for emulation here is the product of massive compression, post processing, and two differently EQ'd / mic'd guitar tracks combined, so of course you won't find it in a single, raw KPA profile.

    Quote from SonicExporer

    Granted there is probably an element of frustration speaking, but I am rightly concerned the KPA isn't going to be able to get these kinds of tones due to the preamp/power stage limitation. I can tell you for a fact there is plenty of both in these kinds of tones. It stems from the evolution of amps and tones as things transitioned from the 70's to the 80's. It wasn't until later 80's when the evolution changed to preamp/rack approach (relying largely on preamp distortion such as MP1), and then later incorporated multi-tube gain stages in more modern amps, again where much of the tone was on the preamp rather than power side. In the 70's (even before) in order to get great tone people blasted the amps, there wasn't a whole lot on the front end. Then around 80 came the JCM800 with the master volume, but people continued to crank the amps with power stage breakup as an artifact of coming out of the 70's. So there's this period of very identifiable tone in the proximity of 80-85 let's say, where most of the great 80's recordings were done using the amps having lots of preamp AND power stage breakup. The KPA apparently can't profile this, and I assume then cannot replicate it either, although I suspect some of the controls like Bias and Sag were added to try and emulate it a bit. Anyway, bottom line is I already ran into this issue trying to profile a micro amp. So I doubt I'm going to be able to capture these kinds of 80's tones for direct recording purposes. If I end up with the rig(s) out of storage in the studio at some point I'll give it a whirl, assuming I still have the KPA at that time. BTW, this theory (based on the factual known limitation of the KPA) would also explain why I am unable to find a profile thus far, besides the fact, as you pointed out, this kind of tone is now considered "vintage" and not many players are using it these days apparently. At least not in the US, but there are plenty using it around the world still.


    Sonic

    Sonic,


    Don't forget that most of the great 80s guitarists did not achieve their classic guitar tones with simply the "raw" amp. Pretty much all the great guitarists were using OD/Distortion pedals to slam the front of their amps...even those with a MV circuit, like the JCM800s.


    I believe Vinnie Campbell used a Boss SD-1 into a JCM800, on the Holy Diver album, as well as the the associated Dio tour.


    Have you tried enabling the KPA's "green scream" stomp, on any of your rigs? I use it all the time, even on high gain amp profiles such as a Soldano or a Friedman BE100. Typically, I back the gain down a bit on the stock profile, and recover the gain and boost using the the "green scream" stomp. By the way, that is the exact same methodology I used when I played through actual tube amps...hence the reason for my extensive collection of pedals (now collecting dust). For some reason, no matter how much of a high gain amp I owned (and I had quite a few), I preferred the sound of a good OD pedal in front, instead of obtaining all the gain from the amp itself. For me, it always yielded more defined and articulate tones, especially for more technical lead guitar work...which is more my style, as opposed to drop-tuned rhythm chugga chugga type playing, which is definitely not my particular cup of tea.


    Cheers,
    John

    Edited once, last by Tritium ().

    Quote from ColdFrixion

    The Dio tone being revered for emulation here is the product of massive compression, post processing, and two differently EQ'd / mic'd guitar tracks combined, so of course you won't find it in a single, raw KPA profile.

    Yes, but since he says he can get the desired tone with his amps, profiling will sure get way closer than other people's profiles. Also if there is a recorded tone where we have a single, clear guitar...easy job with Axe Fx or Bias fx to tone match, then allowing for the possibility to profile that post-processed tone and keep it in the kemper. Well, a tighter version, probably, but still.

    Quote from Dimi84

    Yes, but since he says he can get the desired tone with his amps, profiling will sure get way closer than other people's profiles. Also if there is a recorded tone where we have a single, clear guitar...easy job with Axe Fx or Bias fx to tone match, then allowing for the possibility to profile that post-processed tone and keep it in the kemper. Well, a tighter version, probably, but still.

    If he can get a desired tone with his amps, it still won't be the double tracked Rainbow In The Dark tone, and that's the bar he seems to have set for the KPA.

    Just thought I'd add a comparison vid that I did a while back:


    External Content youtu.be
    Content embedded from external sources will not be displayed without your consent.
    Through the activation of external content, you agree that personal data may be transferred to third party platforms. We have provided more information on this in our privacy policy.


    No processing has been done to either clip, and I only did one or two refining passes for a minute or so.

    Quote from MCVA444

    Just thought I'd add a comparison vid that I did a while back:


    External Content youtu.be
    Content embedded from external sources will not be displayed without your consent.
    Through the activation of external content, you agree that personal data may be transferred to third party platforms. We have provided more information on this in our privacy policy.


    No processing has been done to either clip, and I only did one or two refining passes for a minute or so.

    And? TBH nothing new, IMO still same type of differences in tone. :D


    Stay Metal!

    Quote from MCVA444

    I couldn't possibly comment on the comparison. I am merely the tone messenger, here to stoke the flame for all but the most fanatic followers of the cult of Kempertology.


    @MCVA444


    Kemper Defense Force®™ Team Leader here, reporting in...


    just kidding.


    But seriously, IMHO, the A/B tone comparison you have provided (well done, by the way) could easily represent the same difference that one would expect between any two identical model tube amps, built using the same parts on the same production run, back to back. Notwithstanding the slight tolerances and variations in resistors, capacitors, potentiometers, etc...there is the preamp and powertubes themselves.


    IMHO, any apparent differences could probably be equalized with minor tweaks to gain and EQ settings.


    You said as much in the comments as well as in a reply section of your video:




    Quote

    Here's my first attempt at profiling my Mesa/Boogie Quad with the Kemper. Need to work on levels of gain/mic placement, but it's pretty damn difficult to distinguish between the kemper tone and the actual amp when directly compared!


    Quote

    However, I didn't tweak the Kemper at all post profiling, just used the refine feature. I think if I had reduced the gain a tiny bit and done some minor EQ'ing it would have been even closer.


    Cheers,
    John

    I think it's worth noting that if the congestion issues discussed were as easy as an EQ tweak, I'd think commercial profilers would have solved and compensated for that riddle long ago.

    I think that many commercial profilers try to balance their product so that it works well for either live performance or for direct recording. Some vendors may lean slightly one way or the other, but they still try to balance their products to more or less work "out of the box" (so to speak) in either environment.


    However, at the end of the day, I have never (personally) found a profile, whether commercial or free, that I did not end up tweaking to my tastes. Invariably, these tweaks also include replacing the stock profiled cabinet with one of my own favorites. I can't stress how massive a change this makes.


    Some might argue that "you shouldn't have to". I don't look at it that way, nor is it an inconvenience (to me). The ability to tailor a tone so it suits me particular needs is what it is all about. A great commercial profile may get me 90% of the way. Then, auditioning it with a few specific cabinets, and finding the right one, gets me the rest of the way.


    Cheers,
    John

    I am the father of the "congestion" concept. And yes that's what I personally mean by it. Gated palm mutes, a "tighter" tone all around -- the "kemper" tone, if it has any. Sinmix has been talking about it since for ever.


    That said I am not sure that issue is the main reason why Sonic hasn't gotten his desired tones yet.


    I am repeating my posts, but he'd have to profile the tones he already loves and see what's up. Maybe the kemper fails, maybe not. Even if the profiles end up "congested" (which imho happens consistently with any high gain tone I've profiled, even if it's a slight effect) he may prefer that tone to the amp itself. Who knows.


    But he will surely get much closer to his intended tones. Tone is such a personal thing, for better and worse. I would rather wear a diaper and march the streets singing songs supporting slavery than record with some profiles of some great producers out there.


    And that's fine. We have our tastes. But then its elemental to profile imho.. Or then maybe even use another modeller that allows for more tone building within the unit like the axe or helix or whatever.

    Edited once, last by Dimi84 ().

    Like 2

    @Tritium


    Agreed, though there's a difference between tweaking to personal taste and attempting to replicate a source amp.

    Quote from Monkey_Man

    It was Viv, John. Know one of his squeezes (whilst in Oz) from back in the day well. Related: Met Viv, Ronnie and Jimmy Bain after a Melbourne gig around 1987.
    Sorry. Carry on. I find this thread riveting.


    LOL, you are correct of course, Nicky.


    I always mix up Vivian Campbell's first name with Vinnie Moore.

    There are unfortunately always biases at play when it comes to these discussions, us being human, me included.. Some will have a bias to prove the kemper to be poop; others will defend it armed with cynicism. None of this is new to gear. Heck, anybody familiar with the axe fx forum will know what I'm talking about perhaps too well. But there is space in the middle where people do try to be constructive, which is evident in this thread too.


    I think @ColdFrixion shows well enough how differences can be further minimized in post at least in terms of what I am experiencing. Sonic's frustration is somewhat understandable, buying the kemper, and not being able to get the tone he wants. But, as said, I doubt these issues are about "congestion" per se -- the only way to know if the kemper can work for him is profile his own amps or be lucky enough to find a profile which does the tones he wants -- unlikely imho, to find such profiles.


    About "congestion" and labeling it as "trivial" earlier.. That is such a personal evaluative judgment. For many it is trivial. For me it's a big enough issue with the kemper and it's not just about how things "sound" but feel too. So I'm continuing with some tests to try find where the culprit lies, comparing more to the torpedo and axe fx.. Seeing what works best for me.


    If the kemper's firmware got to the point where I do not experience the congestion with most amps (if not all; I can even feel it with clean tones)... It would reach a point where yes, differences are for me trivial and I feel no need to switch on amps for recording (other than when power stages are driven to heck, but that is an "official" limitation of the device).


    Cheerios