Kemper vs. Real Amp Test - Cameron CCV

    Quote from pacocito

    No more testing for me. After 5 years and half, I'm selling it and going back to my three amps. It came back from Germany yesterday. Leds fixed.


    Maybe I'll come back in the future.


    Good luck!

    Do you do any silent recording or playing? What's your best solution there with your real amps? looked directly boxes through the pc but hard to go back to latency. Two notes hardware is a bit too pricey plus a really good head.

    What we've been referring to as congestion/rasp, something off in the gain structure in the upper registers and thin solo notes could all be related to the same underlying problem. All it would take is for something to cause an alignment, artifact or phase issue (or some other similar animal) and all those attributes we've been discussing could result from that single cause.


    The big question remains however is it fixable or not? I fear if, after 5 years, the problem hasn't been solved maybe the reason is it simply cannot be resolved. Then again, maybe CK is more of a tech-geek & businessman and less of a guitarist so he just hasn't noticed these issues yet. ??


    Sonic

    Quote from SonicExporer

    All it would take is for something to cause an alignment, artifact or phase issue (or some other similar animal) and all those attributes we've been discussing could result from that single cause.

    Unless you've created a comb filter via your mic setup while profiling, phase shouldn't be an issue.

    Quote from ColdFrixion

    Unless you've created a comb filter via your mic setup while profiling, phase shouldn't be an issue.


    So you are completely sure that the algorithm that the Kemper uses to process the signal is not introducing a modulation issue at those frequencies. It 's completely impossible because you know very well how the KPA is processing the signal.

    Quote from pacocito

    So you are completely sure that the algorithm that the Kemper uses to process the signal is not introducing a modulation issue at those frequencies. It 's completely impossible because you know very well how the KPA is processing the signal.

    Only the developers are 100% certain of anything regarding how the KPA works, but a signal that's 'out of phase' requires two waveforms. Yes, even a modulated signal(which is simply the addition of the original signal delayed slightly). It's not hard to identify a phase issue if you know what it sounds like. The sonic differences between the original amp and profile sound nothing like an out of phase signal. For example, listen to a recording of two amp / cab blocks in an Axe FX II panned hard right / left in mono and you'll understand perfectly well what a phase issue sounds like. This isn't a phase issue. Out of phase signals are easy to identify if you know what they actually sound like.

    Quote from ColdFrixion

    Only the developers are 100% certain of anything regarding how the KPA works, but a signal that's 'out of phase' requires two waveforms. Yes, even a modulated signal(which is simply the addition of the original signal delayed slightly). It's not hard to identify a phase issue if you know what it sounds like. The sonic differences between the original amp and profile sound nothing like an out of phase signal. For example, listen to a recording of two amp / cab blocks in an Axe FX II panned hard right / left in mono and you'll understand perfectly well what a phase issue sounds like. This isn't a phase issue. Out of phase signals are easy to identify if you know what they actually sound like.

    CF it seems you are assuming a traditional context of phase/phasing, and I'm pretty sure that's not quite the idea being raised here. Any time there are elements of an offset waveform having similar frequencies over some perceptible time period phase cancellation can potentially be perceived. What @pacocito and I have suggested is that maybe part of the issue has to do with the way the signal inside the KPA is being processed, separated, re-combined, altered, whatever. Some of the elements of the issues we've been discussing most definitely could be explained by phasing issues introduced through internal processing of the KPA, most especially the thin solo notes for example. And when a device delves into emulating harmonics this can become more problematic, potentially explaining the rasp, maybe even the congestion.


    As you say we simply don't know what's going on inside the KPA.

    Quote from SonicExporer

    CF it seems you are assuming a traditional context of phase/phasing, and I'm pretty sure that's not quite the idea being raised here. Any time there are elements of an offset waveform having similar frequencies over some perceptible time period phase cancellation can potentially be perceived.

    For an offset to even occur, you need two waveforms.

    Quote from ColdFrixion

    For an offset to even occur, you need two waveforms.

    Correct, but doesn't mean the KPA would require two source waveforms as an input. It may well be the KPA is generating additional waveform elements and applying/recombining/adding them. The KPA does not necessarily have to internally process as a single signal, in real-time order. We have no idea what it is doing.

    Whatever the case is, I can hear what @pacocito describes; and no, I don't think it's "normal", in a good way at least, when it comes to guitar tone.

    Quote from SonicExporer

    Correct, but doesn't mean the KPA would require two source waveforms as an input. It may well be the KPA is generating additional waveform elements and applying/recombining/adding them. The KPA does not necessarily have to internally process as a single signal, in real-time order. We have no idea what it is doing.

    I have far more reason to believe the profiling process is creating intermodulation distortion.

    Quote from ColdFrixion

    Only the developers are 100% certain of anything regarding how the KPA works, but a signal that's 'out of phase' requires two waveforms. Yes, even a modulated signal(which is simply the addition of the original signal delayed slightly). It's not hard to identify a phase issue if you know what it sounds like. The sonic differences between the original amp and profile sound nothing like an out of phase signal. For example, listen to a recording of two amp / cab blocks in an Axe FX II panned hard right / left in mono and you'll understand perfectly well what a phase issue sounds like. This isn't a phase issue. Out of phase signals are easy to identify if you know what they actually sound like.

    I know what kind of phase issue are you talking about. I detect a drop in the amplitude and sounds like modulation to me.

    Edited once, last by pacocito ().

    Quote from ColdFrixion

    I don't and I've spent a lot of time alongside engineers recording guitars. If he thinks there's modulation, tell him to whip out a phase correlation meter and demonstrate it.


    He doesn't have a KPA and no one will pay him to do any tests. Mine is probably going to be sold in a few days as there are some potential buyers already in contact so no more tests and no more private section of this forum (and probably no more public section too).


    Maybe I'll come back in the future.

    The most typical differences between amp and kemper in my experience

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    Thing is amps are already fairly similar sounding. That's what is most often not talked about. Have a similar cab and mic and simply change the amp -- you will see what I'm talking about.


    So add in another 5-10% kemper tone (this is not a scientific percentage, hoho, but I do not agree that the difference is 1 percent) and the differences become even smaller from amp to amp (well profile of amp to profile of amp). .


    This is why to me differences do matter. We are not talking about apples and oranges to begin with. For gain tones we are talking about red and red-with-slight-orange-tint apples. This is why profiling being as accurate as possible matters to me as much as it does.


    And I agree -- the audience (well, much of it, will not care). But I'm not the audience :)

    Edited once, last by Dimi84 ().

    Like 1
    Quote from Dimi84

    The most typical differences between amp and kemper in my experience

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    What's not being taken into account is that the original amp and profile aren't level matched. After level matching, the differences become somewhat negligible. I still hear the compression issue, but the bulk of the differences are fairly minor, in my opinion:


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    Quote from ColdFrixion

    What's not being taken into account is that the original amp and profile aren't level matched. After level matching, the differences become somewhat negligible. I still hear the compression issue, but the bulk of the differences are fairly minor, in my opinion:


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    I agree with that, volume matching makes a big difference. And thing is KPA rarely volume matches with precision -- so if you make a comparison that way (in A/B) mode and think volumes are ok -- well, they likely are not -- and setting them right makes things more similar. Still I think I'm left with differences I would like to see bridged, but I get your point, because I've done the same matching a few times as accurately as I could and was surprised by the result.

    Quote from ColdFrixion

    What's not being taken into account is that the original amp and profile aren't level matched. After level matching, the differences become somewhat negligible. I still hear the compression issue, but the bulk of the differences are fairly minor, in my opinion:


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    @ColdFrixion


    What software do you use for volume level matching of the audio file?


    Cheers,
    John

    Edited once, last by Tritium ().